Details behind Tiscali migrations leaks from inside
Monday 28 January 2008 15:47:20 by John Hunt
Following the details we released last week concerning the migration of Pipex users to the Tiscali LLU network, The Register has done some further digging and has been informed by an internal source from one of the Pipex brands Tiscali acquired of further details behind the actions.
"The logic is that we'll save more money placing customers on the Tiscali backhaul per month than we will lose from customers migrating away."
"So far we've had our SMTP Servers replaced with Tiscali's Iron Ports and now we've been forced to replace our DNS Servers with Tiscali's."
Source inside Tiscali
There is also an indication that Tiscali intend to place a full block on any peer-to-peer traffic at peak times. This will affect not only the commonly used networks used for file sharing, but also services like BBC iPlayer and 4oD which also use peer-to-peer to distribute content. With recent speculation of a Tiscali sell off in the coming years, it should be no surprise that Tiscali will try and reduce costs as much as possible, whilst boosting profits to make the company a more attractive buy. Steps have already been seen in this direction with the intention of offering quad-play services to customers later this year.
[
Topic: Internet Service Providers |
79 comments |
link to this item ]
Digg this
Add to del.icio.usComments
Posted by
CARPETBURN 8 months ago
quote"...This will affect not only the commonly used networks used for file sharing, but also services like BBC iPlayer and 4oD which also use peer-to-peer to distribute content."
LOL so for your connection which you pay for and a service (4oD which you may pay for) you wont be able to use either??? Remind me what are you are paying for from these halfwits???
quote"...This will affect not only the commonly used networks used for file sharing, but also services like BBC iPlayer and 4oD which also use peer-to-peer to distribute content."
LOL so for your connection which you pay for and a service (4oD which you may pay for) you wont be able to use either??? Remind me what are you are paying for from these halfwits???
Posted by
CARPETBURN 8 months ago
When/If this does occur id suggest everyone leave be it if you are in a contract or not, this will clearly be a change in terms so tell them where to shove it.
When/If this does occur id suggest everyone leave be it if you are in a contract or not, this will clearly be a change in terms so tell them where to shove it.
Posted by
c_j_ 8 months ago
Anybody want to post this info on MoneySaving Expert in language which will be meaningful to Joe Public and Martin Lewis in particular? You don't see many people recommending Tiscali, but iirc Martin Lewis does it regularly. Odd. Where else does it need to go?
"If we had a regulator of Telecoms it would be different."
We do, sort of (lotwe pay some folks lots of money to do the job). The previous incumbent is now a Special Agent (or summat like that) working for Gordon Broon. Bodes well, doesn't it?
Anybody want to post this info on MoneySaving Expert in language which will be meaningful to Joe Public and Martin Lewis in particular? You don't see many people recommending Tiscali, but iirc Martin Lewis does it regularly. Odd. Where else does it need to go?
"If we had a regulator of Telecoms it would be different."
We do, sort of (lotwe pay some folks lots of money to do the job). The previous incumbent is now a Special Agent (or summat like that) working for Gordon Broon. Bodes well, doesn't it?
Posted by
Dawn_Falcon 8 months ago
Slamming, dramatically changing the network, blocking any traffic they don't like, etc.
That's got to be not only changing but breach of contract at this point.
Slamming, dramatically changing the network, blocking any traffic they don't like, etc.
That's got to be not only changing but breach of contract at this point.
Posted by
scousetechie 8 months ago
@c_j_ I just did! http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?p=8250531#post8250531
Let's see what happens
@c_j_ I just did! http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?p=8250531#post8250531
Let's see what happens
Posted by
keith_thfc 8 months ago
I'm a big fan of Martin Lewis but I have not been impressed with previous recommendations which have been solely based on price.
Doesn't matter what it costs - if its not fit for purpose (i.e. throttled to death at peak times) then its a rip-off. And one could argue that a Tiscali connection is useless for anyone who likes to use the internet at peak times.
I'm a big fan of Martin Lewis but I have not been impressed with previous recommendations which have been solely based on price.
Doesn't matter what it costs - if its not fit for purpose (i.e. throttled to death at peak times) then its a rip-off. And one could argue that a Tiscali connection is useless for anyone who likes to use the internet at peak times.
Posted by
flotron 8 months ago
My torrents have not been connecting to the trackers for the past few nights, already requested my MAC tho, so bye bye Tiscali, and good ridance
My torrents have not been connecting to the trackers for the past few nights, already requested my MAC tho, so bye bye Tiscali, and good ridance
Posted by
ismoore999 8 months ago
If Tiscali want to sell, then everyone can help them by leaving. Falling profits and share prices will soon get them snapped up by someone though directors waiting for a large payoff (hopefully cashing in their share options) might be sorely disappointed.
And Guzzo, you are right. When Pipex bought F2S I set up a petition but was met by "waste of time" comments and only 9 signatories (including those who seem to have email addresses suggesting that I do strange things with my anus!)
If Tiscali want to sell, then everyone can help them by leaving. Falling profits and share prices will soon get them snapped up by someone though directors waiting for a large payoff (hopefully cashing in their share options) might be sorely disappointed.
And Guzzo, you are right. When Pipex bought F2S I set up a petition but was met by "waste of time" comments and only 9 signatories (including those who seem to have email addresses suggesting that I do strange things with my anus!)
Posted by
CARPETBURN 8 months ago
Dawn_Falcon I mentioned things like slamming and breaking a contract a week ago on the other news story here... http://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/3373-tiscali-slowly-migrating-pipex-users-to-its-own-platform.html
people scouffed LOL more fool them.
Dawn_Falcon I mentioned things like slamming and breaking a contract a week ago on the other news story here... http://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/3373-tiscali-slowly-migrating-pipex-users-to-its-own-platform.html
people scouffed LOL more fool them.
Posted by
whatever2 8 months ago
shock horror...tiscali in service quality debacle...whatever next?
sunrise at dawn?
shock horror...tiscali in service quality debacle...whatever next?
sunrise at dawn?
Posted by
Dawn_Falcon 8 months ago
Carpet - been saying the slamming thing for over a year...
Carpet - been saying the slamming thing for over a year...
Posted by
AndrueC 8 months ago
People wanted cheap broadband and now they are getting cheap broadband. It stinks but all you can do is try and find a decent a ISP. For those that can get it I highly recommend Be.
Of course by doing that you are no longer subsidising those in the less profitable exchanges so you increase the digital divide.
Pay your money and make your choice :-/
People wanted cheap broadband and now they are getting cheap broadband. It stinks but all you can do is try and find a decent a ISP. For those that can get it I highly recommend Be.
Of course by doing that you are no longer subsidising those in the less profitable exchanges so you increase the digital divide.
Pay your money and make your choice :-/
Posted by
AndrueC 8 months ago
@keith_tgc:Be careful with that 'fit for the purpose' phrase. It doesn't apply to services only goods. Guess what an iSp does?
@keith_tgc:Be careful with that 'fit for the purpose' phrase. It doesn't apply to services only goods. Guess what an iSp does?
Posted by
herdwick 8 months ago
"been saying the slamming thing for over a year" doesn't make it right, this simply doesn't fit the general definition of slamming....
"'slamming', an extreme form of mis-selling, where customers are simply switched from one company to another without their express knowledge and consent. " (OFCOM, et al)
in this case the same company elects to provide the service a different way, which isn't the same thing. Companies get taken over all the time and rearrange their internal processes and systems to suit.
"been saying the slamming thing for over a year" doesn't make it right, this simply doesn't fit the general definition of slamming....
"'slamming', an extreme form of mis-selling, where customers are simply switched from one company to another without their express knowledge and consent. " (OFCOM, et al)
in this case the same company elects to provide the service a different way, which isn't the same thing. Companies get taken over all the time and rearrange their internal processes and systems to suit.
Posted by
Dawn_Falcon 8 months ago
I don't care what worthless cowards (OFCOM) say.
It's altering the contract in a material way, and this in any other industry (mobile phone, etc.) is considered slamming.
It's clear you work for OFCOM, anyway...
I don't care what worthless cowards (OFCOM) say.
It's altering the contract in a material way, and this in any other industry (mobile phone, etc.) is considered slamming.
It's clear you work for OFCOM, anyway...
Posted by
CARPETBURN 8 months ago
quote"Companies get taken over all the time and rearrange their internal processes and systems to suit."
Doesnt matter, just that happening gives you a legal right to leave. When you have a contract both parties have to agree to any change in that contract or service. Pipex have not notified their customers they may be moved to LLU thus they are in violation of the contract.
(CONT)
quote"Companies get taken over all the time and rearrange their internal processes and systems to suit."
Doesnt matter, just that happening gives you a legal right to leave. When you have a contract both parties have to agree to any change in that contract or service. Pipex have not notified their customers they may be moved to LLU thus they are in violation of the contract.
(CONT)
Posted by
CARPETBURN 8 months ago
To use an example, when freeserve got taken over by wannado an email was sent to customers to tell them this, they were given the option of accepting this by continuing to use the service or leaving if they did not agree to it. Same thing also happened when wannado became orange. While you may have a point about it not being the true definition of slamming its a breach of contract by Pipex their terms basically say they will notify the customer of any changes to the service..... Obviously they havent... thus contract INVALID!
To use an example, when freeserve got taken over by wannado an email was sent to customers to tell them this, they were given the option of accepting this by continuing to use the service or leaving if they did not agree to it. Same thing also happened when wannado became orange. While you may have a point about it not being the true definition of slamming its a breach of contract by Pipex their terms basically say they will notify the customer of any changes to the service..... Obviously they havent... thus contract INVALID!
Posted by
CARPETBURN 8 months ago
Maybe the ball-less Ofcom should pull their finger out of their backside and at the very least investigate why Pipex havent notified customers of a change to the provisioning of the service and while they are at it also investigate why they still expect some to pay cancelation fees when their service has been LLU'd without the customers permission.
Maybe the ball-less Ofcom should pull their finger out of their backside and at the very least investigate why Pipex havent notified customers of a change to the provisioning of the service and while they are at it also investigate why they still expect some to pay cancelation fees when their service has been LLU'd without the customers permission.
Posted by
therioman 8 months ago
"Doesnt matter, just that happening gives you a legal right to leave."
Only in your mind. If the contracted services are not being changed, then it's certainly not true that an automatic option to quit exists. They never said it would be BT IPstream, and in the same way if they choose to use MS Exchange one week and SendMail then next for thE SMTP you've no right to moan, you've no right to cancel just because they change the method of delivery - they're still delivering what you pay for.
"Doesnt matter, just that happening gives you a legal right to leave."
Only in your mind. If the contracted services are not being changed, then it's certainly not true that an automatic option to quit exists. They never said it would be BT IPstream, and in the same way if they choose to use MS Exchange one week and SendMail then next for thE SMTP you've no right to moan, you've no right to cancel just because they change the method of delivery - they're still delivering what you pay for.
Posted by
Guzzo 8 months ago
Actually they do NOT have to notify you of a contract change. Just try telling Pipex you do now want to be moved to an LLu connection and see what happens!
As to the Balless Offcom comment thats not fair.
It is not fcoms fault they are ball less they are like all the other regulators.
they were set up by HM Government to satisfy the illusion that big business will not rape us
Actually they do NOT have to notify you of a contract change. Just try telling Pipex you do now want to be moved to an LLu connection and see what happens!
As to the Balless Offcom comment thats not fair.
It is not fcoms fault they are ball less they are like all the other regulators.
they were set up by HM Government to satisfy the illusion that big business will not rape us
Posted by
DA-London 8 months ago
My company uses Pipex. We have a Business services, and it has been down for over five days. We are furious. Pipex technical support are completely useless at giving us any information, and we still have no estimate of when our service will restored. They are saying it is down to BT to make changes at the exchange. Can anyone suggest a course of action that will seriously get our service back ? Is this getting into the IT press ?
My company uses Pipex. We have a Business services, and it has been down for over five days. We are furious. Pipex technical support are completely useless at giving us any information, and we still have no estimate of when our service will restored. They are saying it is down to BT to make changes at the exchange. Can anyone suggest a course of action that will seriously get our service back ? Is this getting into the IT press ?
Posted by
Guzzo 8 months ago
what has hapened since privatization? Every single one of the compamies has raped us and continues do so on a daily basis
the latest lie is "we raise prices to stop carbon emissions"
People in this forum should start to realise that the City of London runs the show via its agents it apoints to stand for election. Please tell me its different.
Each ISP gets eaten up slowly until only a handfull are left. All have the same shareholders in the end.
what has hapened since privatization? Every single one of the compamies has raped us and continues do so on a daily basis
the latest lie is "we raise prices to stop carbon emissions"
People in this forum should start to realise that the City of London runs the show via its agents it apoints to stand for election. Please tell me its different.
Each ISP gets eaten up slowly until only a handfull are left. All have the same shareholders in the end.
Posted by
Guzzo 8 months ago
You no longer have "legal rights" to do much at all. As I have said before if we ALL enmass leave a bad ISP we can bring it crashing down where it belongs. Good ISP's should be rewarded, bad ISP's must be punished. This is of course not in line with Socialism so we have a conflict. Now where is that Pipex MAC code gone? LOL
You no longer have "legal rights" to do much at all. As I have said before if we ALL enmass leave a bad ISP we can bring it crashing down where it belongs. Good ISP's should be rewarded, bad ISP's must be punished. This is of course not in line with Socialism so we have a conflict. Now where is that Pipex MAC code gone? LOL
Posted by
CARPETBURN 8 months ago
quote"Actually they do NOT have to notify you of a contract change."
Er direct from their terms page (im not linking to exactly where or they will remove it).
quote"We may change these conditions at any time for legal, regulatory or commercial reasons. We will notify you of all such changes in writing and/or by publishing them on our website..........
we will give you at least 30 days notice of such changes by writing to you and/or publishing them on our website."
(CONT)
quote"Actually they do NOT have to notify you of a contract change."
Er direct from their terms page (im not linking to exactly where or they will remove it).
quote"We may change these conditions at any time for legal, regulatory or commercial reasons. We will notify you of all such changes in writing and/or by publishing them on our website..........
we will give you at least 30 days notice of such changes by writing to you and/or publishing them on our website."
(CONT)
Posted by
CARPETBURN 8 months ago
Hmm commercial reason....... That would be their sale to Tiscali and the alteration to the service (LLU) which has/is taking place. Have they notified users NO.... contract VOID!
Hmm commercial reason....... That would be their sale to Tiscali and the alteration to the service (LLU) which has/is taking place. Have they notified users NO.... contract VOID!
Posted by
herdwick 8 months ago
"It's clear you work for OFCOM, anyway..." yeah, right, whatever.
"the alteration to the service" - it's the same, it's a broadband up to 8M service like they sold in the first place. Get over it, you aren't even affected.
If Pipex users don't like the Tiscali service, and I can relate to that, then its "MAC please". The barrack room lawyers would say you can't be held to contract, but they make it up as they go along so ask a real one.
"It's clear you work for OFCOM, anyway..." yeah, right, whatever.
"the alteration to the service" - it's the same, it's a broadband up to 8M service like they sold in the first place. Get over it, you aren't even affected.
If Pipex users don't like the Tiscali service, and I can relate to that, then its "MAC please". The barrack room lawyers would say you can't be held to contract, but they make it up as they go along so ask a real one.
Posted by
Guzzo 8 months ago
Stop recommending BE as the saviour. I get 7.3mb on an LLU connection via F2s.com BE said they could only offer me up to 2mb speed. Even though the exchange is BE enabled. To be fair the BE salesman did live somehwere in Bulgaria so maybe the line length is too long?
So much for their 24 mb speed. great if you live 100 yards form the exchange, but who needs all that radiation eh?
Stop recommending BE as the saviour. I get 7.3mb on an LLU connection via F2s.com BE said they could only offer me up to 2mb speed. Even though the exchange is BE enabled. To be fair the BE salesman did live somehwere in Bulgaria so maybe the line length is too long?
So much for their 24 mb speed. great if you live 100 yards form the exchange, but who needs all that radiation eh?
Posted by
CARPETBURN 8 months ago
I dont need to be a lawyer to know when i left Pipex and the numerous issues i had i took the matter to a solicitor. Suddenly their whole attitude changed from one of we dont give a damn to one of how would you like us to lick your backside sir.
A persons rights over things like their contracts and so called service have always been there. The trouble is this nation has forgot how to stand up and say NO to big business when they are perfectly legally entitled to do so. People like you saying people have no rights doesnt help either.
I dont need to be a lawyer to know when i left Pipex and the numerous issues i had i took the matter to a solicitor. Suddenly their whole attitude changed from one of we dont give a damn to one of how would you like us to lick your backside sir.
A persons rights over things like their contracts and so called service have always been there. The trouble is this nation has forgot how to stand up and say NO to big business when they are perfectly legally entitled to do so. People like you saying people have no rights doesnt help either.
Posted by
CARPETBURN 8 months ago
quote"So much for their 24 mb speed"
So much for you understanding what UP TO means :-$
quote"So much for their 24 mb speed"
So much for you understanding what UP TO means :-$
Posted by
herdwick 8 months ago
"We may change these conditions at any time " - precisely which of their conditions have changed ?
"We may change these conditions at any time " - precisely which of their conditions have changed ?
Posted by
daveinsussex 8 months ago
Pipex migrated me to their LLU Tiscali network on the 15th of Jan and since then nothing has worked properly, I couldn't connect as they didn't tell me I needed to change my encapsulation. MSN messenger never now connects and I can't send emails using my pipex account.... I have had appalling customer service with regards to logging and correcting the fault.... they didn't seem to care or even log the fault when I phoned them on 3 occasions so now I’ve given up with Pipex/Tiscali as I don't think they will ever fix my problem. I'm going to use another ISP.
Pipex migrated me to their LLU Tiscali network on the 15th of Jan and since then nothing has worked properly, I couldn't connect as they didn't tell me I needed to change my encapsulation. MSN messenger never now connects and I can't send emails using my pipex account.... I have had appalling customer service with regards to logging and correcting the fault.... they didn't seem to care or even log the fault when I phoned them on 3 occasions so now I’ve given up with Pipex/Tiscali as I don't think they will ever fix my problem. I'm going to use another ISP.
Posted by
AndrueC 8 months ago
@Guzzo:Be can only make an estimate based on the line database that BT have sent them. Sometimes that database is inaccurate. It's unfortunate but you shouldn't blame Be for that.
If you know you can get 7.3Mb with your existing connection then you will get that with Be (or whatever the equivalent ADSL2+ speed is). You can always send them your current router stats and they will go by those rather than the BT database.
@Guzzo:Be can only make an estimate based on the line database that BT have sent them. Sometimes that database is inaccurate. It's unfortunate but you shouldn't blame Be for that.
If you know you can get 7.3Mb with your existing connection then you will get that with Be (or whatever the equivalent ADSL2+ speed is). You can always send them your current router stats and they will go by those rather than the BT database.
Posted by
darkmast2 8 months ago
The problem with everyone leaving a bad ISP and joining a good one is that eventually all the capacity of a good ISP will be taken up and you get more contention and traffic so the good ISPs will have to take steps to stop their network becoming congested.
The problem with everyone leaving a bad ISP and joining a good one is that eventually all the capacity of a good ISP will be taken up and you get more contention and traffic so the good ISPs will have to take steps to stop their network becoming congested.
Posted by
c_j_ 8 months ago
re "fit for purpose"
the relevant legislation also covers services, the terminology changes, to something requiring a service be provided "with reasonable skill and care".
If a punter can demonstrate that "reasonable skill and care" is not being used, contract can be terminated by the punter (but sadly not end of story, courtesy of the lovely LLU migration game).
Rather old "I want out" letter:
http://bbs.adslguide.org.uk/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=pipex&Number=2814756
re "fit for purpose"
the relevant legislation also covers services, the terminology changes, to something requiring a service be provided "with reasonable skill and care".
If a punter can demonstrate that "reasonable skill and care" is not being used, contract can be terminated by the punter (but sadly not end of story, courtesy of the lovely LLU migration game).
Rather old "I want out" letter:
http://bbs.adslguide.org.uk/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=pipex&Number=2814756
Posted by
dopamine2 8 months ago
Re: darkmast2
The problem with everyone leaving a bad ISP... eventually all the capacity of a good ISP will be taken up...
Move to an ISP that charges a price that enables it to invest in more capacity whilst still staying profitable. I've just moved from Pipex to a new ISP with a similar package, and am paying £10 more per month. You get what you pay for; £6.49/month at Tiscali for a service that doesn't work, or £25+/month for one that does. I don't like having to pay more, but that's what it takes for a decent product.
Re: darkmast2
The problem with everyone leaving a bad ISP... eventually all the capacity of a good ISP will be taken up...
Move to an ISP that charges a price that enables it to invest in more capacity whilst still staying profitable. I've just moved from Pipex to a new ISP with a similar package, and am paying £10 more per month. You get what you pay for; £6.49/month at Tiscali for a service that doesn't work, or £25+/month for one that does. I don't like having to pay more, but that's what it takes for a decent product.
Posted by
CARPETBURN 8 months ago
quote""We may change these conditions at any time " - precisely which of their conditions have changed ?"
My god did you not read the news story? The DNS servers have changed, just for starters, thats without getting into finer points of their terms which say the service is supplied by PIPEX... which clearly as a whole it isnt if ya using a Tiscali DNS server.
(CONT)
quote""We may change these conditions at any time " - precisely which of their conditions have changed ?"
My god did you not read the news story? The DNS servers have changed, just for starters, thats without getting into finer points of their terms which say the service is supplied by PIPEX... which clearly as a whole it isnt if ya using a Tiscali DNS server.
(CONT)
Posted by
CARPETBURN 8 months ago
If people also read the terms it becomes even more clear a number of things have changed. SOME People no longer even have newsgroup access which was included with the ORIGINAL Pipex only service. This is simple contract law... You have an agreement, both sides have to agree to the conditions, the conditions on how the service is provided have changed for a commercial reason... (CONT)
If people also read the terms it becomes even more clear a number of things have changed. SOME People no longer even have newsgroup access which was included with the ORIGINAL Pipex only service. This is simple contract law... You have an agreement, both sides have to agree to the conditions, the conditions on how the service is provided have changed for a commercial reason... (CONT)
Posted by
CARPETBURN 8 months ago
Notice as PROMISED has not been given... This isnt brain surgery. I spose you think when they block all P2P as the news story suggests and dont bother to inform people that wont be a violation of terms either or a change in service will it DOH! Why you are even defending them i dunno unless as someone suggested you are part of Ofcom and too lazy to do your job.
Notice as PROMISED has not been given... This isnt brain surgery. I spose you think when they block all P2P as the news story suggests and dont bother to inform people that wont be a violation of terms either or a change in service will it DOH! Why you are even defending them i dunno unless as someone suggested you are part of Ofcom and too lazy to do your job.
Posted by
andrew (
staff member)
8 months ago
DNS servers etc may have changed but where in the contract does it state that DNS servers XYZ will be provided to the consumer? The term 'condition' is referring to that contract, which normally does not specify things like location of DNS, wholesale connection type, email server types etc. If we follow Carpetburn to the letter, everytime BT Wholesale alter ATM routing/virtual paths people need to be informed.
As suggested in all cases like this, seek actual legal advice if you wish to end a contract but the provider refuses.
staff member)
8 months ago
DNS servers etc may have changed but where in the contract does it state that DNS servers XYZ will be provided to the consumer? The term 'condition' is referring to that contract, which normally does not specify things like location of DNS, wholesale connection type, email server types etc. If we follow Carpetburn to the letter, everytime BT Wholesale alter ATM routing/virtual paths people need to be informed.
As suggested in all cases like this, seek actual legal advice if you wish to end a contract but the provider refuses.
Posted by
herdwick 8 months ago
" This is simple contract law... You have an agreement, both sides have to agree to the conditions" so come on then, precisely which term of the agreement has been changed ? stop dodging the question.
If you're going to bandy around half baked quasi-legal advice at least take the time to string a cohesive argument together.
" This is simple contract law... You have an agreement, both sides have to agree to the conditions" so come on then, precisely which term of the agreement has been changed ? stop dodging the question.
If you're going to bandy around half baked quasi-legal advice at least take the time to string a cohesive argument together.
Posted by
herdwick 8 months ago
http://www.pipex.co.uk/legal/pipex-combined-t+c.php (Version: 19th Oct 07)
"4.1 We want to offer You the highest level of service that We are reasonably able to achieve. In order to do so we will utilise different technologies and network topographies to deliver the Broadband Service to You. The different technologies and networks may be operated by different member companies."
http://www.pipex.co.uk/legal/pipex-combined-t+c.php (Version: 19th Oct 07)
"4.1 We want to offer You the highest level of service that We are reasonably able to achieve. In order to do so we will utilise different technologies and network topographies to deliver the Broadband Service to You. The different technologies and networks may be operated by different member companies."
Posted by
therioman 8 months ago
As Andrew and others point out, they're under no obligation to provide the service in any particular way, just to provide the service.
So if you're not getting the connectivity service you pay for, you may have a case (IANAL/get legal advice etc), but if you're just wanting to duck out of LLU, then I believe you're wasting your time.
As Andrew and others point out, they're under no obligation to provide the service in any particular way, just to provide the service.
So if you're not getting the connectivity service you pay for, you may have a case (IANAL/get legal advice etc), but if you're just wanting to duck out of LLU, then I believe you're wasting your time.
Posted by
uniquename 8 months ago
Herdwick's post is clearly a change in Terms and Conditions, as (presumably the document as a whole not necessarily that quote) is "Nersion: 19th October 07.
As such all users should have been notified in one way or another that there had been a change. They that have, I believe, one month to refuse the change and leave without penalty.
As it is now over a month, the only way out would be to prove notification was not given to the individual, even if it were to others.
Herdwick's post is clearly a change in Terms and Conditions, as (presumably the document as a whole not necessarily that quote) is "Nersion: 19th October 07.
As such all users should have been notified in one way or another that there had been a change. They that have, I believe, one month to refuse the change and leave without penalty.
As it is now over a month, the only way out would be to prove notification was not given to the individual, even if it were to others.
Posted by
uniquename 8 months ago
Oops - typos previous post.
1 - Version not Nersion.
2 - They then have, not They that have.
Oops - typos previous post.
1 - Version not Nersion.
2 - They then have, not They that have.
Posted by
hellsbells 8 months ago
In reply to uniquename's posting... are you saying that because the terms and conditions are dated October that in some way they are not vaild?? The terms are as they are and Oct 07 will stand unless they have made a change to them and then obviously they will be superceded by a new version.
paragraph 4.1 says it all, nothing has changed in the contract.
Just walk with your feet as soon as you can, and learn a lesson, you pay peanuts you get monkeys.
In reply to uniquename's posting... are you saying that because the terms and conditions are dated October that in some way they are not vaild?? The terms are as they are and Oct 07 will stand unless they have made a change to them and then obviously they will be superceded by a new version.
paragraph 4.1 says it all, nothing has changed in the contract.
Just walk with your feet as soon as you can, and learn a lesson, you pay peanuts you get monkeys.
Posted by
uniquename 8 months ago
@hellsbells. I beg your pardon? First it seems either you not read my post and herdwick's properly, or you cannot understand plain english. The contract terms changed on 19 October 07. Customers have to be notified. If they were not, the terms as a whole do not apply to them.
Secondly I object to the implied insult and assumption of superiority in your final sentence.
Thirdly, in the same sentence you seem to assume I am a Pipex or Tiscali customer.
Wrong!
@hellsbells. I beg your pardon? First it seems either you not read my post and herdwick's properly, or you cannot understand plain english. The contract terms changed on 19 October 07. Customers have to be notified. If they were not, the terms as a whole do not apply to them.
Secondly I object to the implied insult and assumption of superiority in your final sentence.
Thirdly, in the same sentence you seem to assume I am a Pipex or Tiscali customer.
Wrong!
Posted by
CARPETBURN 8 months ago
Christ some people obviously just dont understand...
If a change occurs they have to notify you. If they havent notified you they have breached the contract... Ive been here before when wannado took over freeserve. Its standard procedure for any company with a brain to tell people of ANY CHANGE, if you cant comprehend that i give up. As to herdwicks post with the term starting (We want to offer...) I suggest you read a bit more to see who "we" is supposed to be... (CONT)
Christ some people obviously just dont understand...
If a change occurs they have to notify you. If they havent notified you they have breached the contract... Ive been here before when wannado took over freeserve. Its standard procedure for any company with a brain to tell people of ANY CHANGE, if you cant comprehend that i give up. As to herdwicks post with the term starting (We want to offer...) I suggest you read a bit more to see who "we" is supposed to be... (CONT)
Posted by
CARPETBURN 8 months ago
Its supposed to be Pipex... NOT Tiscali if the service in any part is from Tiscali than the "we" they refer (that being them Pipex)to following their own terms is not Pipex, and thus they are in violation of the very term you quoted also. Because the "we" is no longer offering the so called "highest level of service".
Its supposed to be Pipex... NOT Tiscali if the service in any part is from Tiscali than the "we" they refer (that being them Pipex)to following their own terms is not Pipex, and thus they are in violation of the very term you quoted also. Because the "we" is no longer offering the so called "highest level of service".
Posted by
CARPETBURN 8 months ago
Either Pipex are supplying the service or they are not? If suddenly your IP resolves to Tiscali Pipex aint providing it are they? If your newsgroup access dissapears because your IP now goes to a Tiscali rather than a Pipex server again thats another change... If you wanna be padantic the terms and contract mentions usenet so when they Tiscali you and you lose ya news service which you previously had (even if they replace it with another server) thats another change. This really isnt difficult to comprehend.
Either Pipex are supplying the service or they are not? If suddenly your IP resolves to Tiscali Pipex aint providing it are they? If your newsgroup access dissapears because your IP now goes to a Tiscali rather than a Pipex server again thats another change... If you wanna be padantic the terms and contract mentions usenet so when they Tiscali you and you lose ya news service which you previously had (even if they replace it with another server) thats another change. This really isnt difficult to comprehend.
Posted by
CARPETBURN 8 months ago
Again i also ask do you think when they completely block P2P like the news item mentions that isnt another change?? I spose you think they are free to do that if they wish? Any of it going in yet?
If a service changes they have to tell you... You couldnt own a sweet shop a customer asks for a quarter of rubarb and custard and give em Bomboms instead, they would tell you legally and morally where to shove them and the same applys with the whole Pipex shambles.
Again i also ask do you think when they completely block P2P like the news item mentions that isnt another change?? I spose you think they are free to do that if they wish? Any of it going in yet?
If a service changes they have to tell you... You couldnt own a sweet shop a customer asks for a quarter of rubarb and custard and give em Bomboms instead, they would tell you legally and morally where to shove them and the same applys with the whole Pipex shambles.
Posted by
CARPETBURN 8 months ago
Pipex clearly state in the network part of their terms you get access to newsgroups...
USENET NEWS
All Users of the Network utilised by Pipex Services are advised to become familiar with the Pipex information and guidelines which explain what the service is and how to use it. These guidelines can be found at : https://www.mypipex.net/solo/support/news/usage/
So where the heck has that gone for several that have lost it after being Tiscali'ised????
Is that not a big enough change in the service and terms and contract and conditions for you???
Sheeesh!
Pipex clearly state in the network part of their terms you get access to newsgroups...
USENET NEWS
All Users of the Network utilised by Pipex Services are advised to become familiar with the Pipex information and guidelines which explain what the service is and how to use it. These guidelines can be found at : https://www.mypipex.net/solo/support/news/usage/
So where the heck has that gone for several that have lost it after being Tiscali'ised????
Is that not a big enough change in the service and terms and contract and conditions for you???
Sheeesh!
Posted by
AdrianXY 8 months ago
I am with Pipex and I cannot now use bittorent in the evenings from about 1600 until 22.30. Which is the best ISP for bittorrent now?
I am with Pipex and I cannot now use bittorent in the evenings from about 1600 until 22.30. Which is the best ISP for bittorrent now?
Posted by
c_j_ 8 months ago
The myPipex pages referred to above also used to say that it was *punter's* job to check the Ts+Cs on the website, and that Pipex would *not* notify punters if Ts+cs changed. This doesn't sound entirely fair, and unfair terms in consumer contracts are generally unenforceable.
But as no one I know of has taken the trouble to test it in court and establish a precedent, you're in the hands of the armchair lawyers.
Ofcom did have at least one formal complaint re various dodginess in the Pipex contract (post GX, pre Tiscali), but Ofcom said "Pipex are reviewing their contract" and gave up.
The myPipex pages referred to above also used to say that it was *punter's* job to check the Ts+Cs on the website, and that Pipex would *not* notify punters if Ts+cs changed. This doesn't sound entirely fair, and unfair terms in consumer contracts are generally unenforceable.
But as no one I know of has taken the trouble to test it in court and establish a precedent, you're in the hands of the armchair lawyers.
Ofcom did have at least one formal complaint re various dodginess in the Pipex contract (post GX, pre Tiscali), but Ofcom said "Pipex are reviewing their contract" and gave up.
Posted by
Guzzo 8 months ago
lot of armchair lawyers in here this week :)))))
lot of armchair lawyers in here this week :)))))
Posted by
CARPETBURN 8 months ago
If you challenged them in a court and prior to that collected evidence to show the service had changed significantly in the time you were with them they wouldnt stand a hope in hells chance of winning. Their only defence would be to lie and say we told the customer about the changes... Which for any court with common sense they would see straight through otherwise if they did tell people of changes you wouldnt of gone to the effort of taking the monkeys to a court to get them off your back.
If you challenged them in a court and prior to that collected evidence to show the service had changed significantly in the time you were with them they wouldnt stand a hope in hells chance of winning. Their only defence would be to lie and say we told the customer about the changes... Which for any court with common sense they would see straight through otherwise if they did tell people of changes you wouldnt of gone to the effort of taking the monkeys to a court to get them off your back.
Posted by
CARPETBURN 8 months ago
Re: what c_j says "used to say that it was *punter's* job to check the Ts+Cs on the website, and that Pipex would *not* notify punters if Ts+cs changed. This doesn't sound entirely fair, and unfair terms in consumer contracts are generally unenforceable."
Indeed that wouldnt stand up either, as ive said throughout all this both sides have to agree to changes and be informed of them, it really is simple contract law... If a contract is to change you cant just modify the paperwork as you see fit, and remain tight lipped id have thought that was plainly obvious.
Re: what c_j says "used to say that it was *punter's* job to check the Ts+Cs on the website, and that Pipex would *not* notify punters if Ts+cs changed. This doesn't sound entirely fair, and unfair terms in consumer contracts are generally unenforceable."
Indeed that wouldnt stand up either, as ive said throughout all this both sides have to agree to changes and be informed of them, it really is simple contract law... If a contract is to change you cant just modify the paperwork as you see fit, and remain tight lipped id have thought that was plainly obvious.
Posted by
rasczak 8 months ago
Yet again Carpetburn reading what he wants to. No one is disputing that if the experience provided, ie speeds, servers and protocols available and the like have changed then this could well be reason to be able to get out of a contract. If changing you to the LLU backend casues such problems then you may have a case. The change to LLU backend in itself is not a change of terms, or breach of contract or slamming. If your ISP changed from IPStream to LLU, or vice versa, and this gave you faster speeds and less latency, would you be complaining that they should have told you ?
Yet again Carpetburn reading what he wants to. No one is disputing that if the experience provided, ie speeds, servers and protocols available and the like have changed then this could well be reason to be able to get out of a contract. If changing you to the LLU backend casues such problems then you may have a case. The change to LLU backend in itself is not a change of terms, or breach of contract or slamming. If your ISP changed from IPStream to LLU, or vice versa, and this gave you faster speeds and less latency, would you be complaining that they should have told you ?
Posted by
CARPETBURN 8 months ago
quote" If your ISP changed from IPStream to LLU, or vice versa, and this gave you faster speeds and less latency, would you be complaining that they should have told you ?"
No of course you wouldnt duh, because that wouldnt be detrimental to your usage.
quote" If your ISP changed from IPStream to LLU, or vice versa, and this gave you faster speeds and less latency, would you be complaining that they should have told you ?"
No of course you wouldnt duh, because that wouldnt be detrimental to your usage.
Posted by
rasczak 8 months ago
Is this a breakthrough I see ? So if your ISP changed their backbone and it improved things this is not a change to the T&Cs or breach of contract or slamming. Therefore on that logic it follows that an ISP can changing their backbone is not something they have to notify you about. You cannot claim breach of contract purely because a change to LLU from IP Stream, as Herdwick and hellsbells have said.
Is this a breakthrough I see ? So if your ISP changed their backbone and it improved things this is not a change to the T&Cs or breach of contract or slamming. Therefore on that logic it follows that an ISP can changing their backbone is not something they have to notify you about. You cannot claim breach of contract purely because a change to LLU from IP Stream, as Herdwick and hellsbells have said.
Posted by
CARPETBURN 8 months ago
quote"Is this a breakthrough I see ? So if your ISP changed their backbone and it improved things this is not a change to the T&Cs or breach of contract or slamming."
I didnt say that i said if it improved things you would be an idiot to complain much the same as your arguement. Do you know what "Detrimental" means? Its the opposite to beneficial. Nobody will complain if something is beneficial will they well not unless using your own logic they are you DOOOOH!!!!
quote"Is this a breakthrough I see ? So if your ISP changed their backbone and it improved things this is not a change to the T&Cs or breach of contract or slamming."
I didnt say that i said if it improved things you would be an idiot to complain much the same as your arguement. Do you know what "Detrimental" means? Its the opposite to beneficial. Nobody will complain if something is beneficial will they well not unless using your own logic they are you DOOOOH!!!!
Posted by
Dawn_Falcon 8 months ago
Andrew, the issue is that there are additonal costs and downtime for moving from a LLU connection, that is legally a substantial issue.
(It's *not* the tech change, it's the cost and downtime, to be clear)
Andrew, the issue is that there are additonal costs and downtime for moving from a LLU connection, that is legally a substantial issue.
(It's *not* the tech change, it's the cost and downtime, to be clear)
Posted by
rasczak 8 months ago
@ Carpetburn. So then there's no breakthrough, you don't really understand. Let me try and make it clear. An ISP changing their backbone from BT IPStream to LLU or vice versa is not a change of T&C.
Providing a significantly different end experience may well be in breach of contract.
The two may correlate but can also be exclusive.
@ Carpetburn. So then there's no breakthrough, you don't really understand. Let me try and make it clear. An ISP changing their backbone from BT IPStream to LLU or vice versa is not a change of T&C.
Providing a significantly different end experience may well be in breach of contract.
The two may correlate but can also be exclusive.
Posted by
pbsolo 8 months ago
Er,.. Tiscali isn't an English company, it's Italian.
I wonder where the money came from to set it up originally?
Er,.. Tiscali isn't an English company, it's Italian.
I wonder where the money came from to set it up originally?
Posted by
chrysalis 8 months ago
I just had a quick read of pipes TOS.
The 2.1 binds pipex to sell the product as described on pipex.co.uk at the point of sale if this was to change after the point of sale then the TOS is breached by pipex.
2.4 is arguably also breached as migrations to LLU are within pipex control.
2.9 is breached if the customer hasnt been informed beforehand in regards to change of dns etc.
2.10 same as 2.9
In addition under basic trading law I believe a consumer has a opt out if the ongoing service significantly changes after point of sale.
I just had a quick read of pipes TOS.
The 2.1 binds pipex to sell the product as described on pipex.co.uk at the point of sale if this was to change after the point of sale then the TOS is breached by pipex.
2.4 is arguably also breached as migrations to LLU are within pipex control.
2.9 is breached if the customer hasnt been informed beforehand in regards to change of dns etc.
2.10 same as 2.9
In addition under basic trading law I believe a consumer has a opt out if the ongoing service significantly changes after point of sale.
Posted by
chrysalis 8 months ago
herdwick you seem to be a big fan of consumers been ripped off and back a business policy that lures consumers in and once the numbers are in place reduce the quality of service to gain profits.
herdwick you seem to be a big fan of consumers been ripped off and back a business policy that lures consumers in and once the numbers are in place reduce the quality of service to gain profits.
Posted by
CARPETBURN 8 months ago
quote"2.9 is breached if the customer hasnt been informed beforehand in regards to change of dns etc.
2.10 same as 2.9
In addition under basic trading law I believe a consumer has a opt out if the ongoing service significantly changes after point of sale."
Crikey someone finally actually bothered reading their pointless lying terms before they commented... I salute you chrysalis. Theres plenty more they have broke also, unfortunately it seems pointing it out to some is pointless.
quote"2.9 is breached if the customer hasnt been informed beforehand in regards to change of dns etc.
2.10 same as 2.9
In addition under basic trading law I believe a consumer has a opt out if the ongoing service significantly changes after point of sale."
Crikey someone finally actually bothered reading their pointless lying terms before they commented... I salute you chrysalis. Theres plenty more they have broke also, unfortunately it seems pointing it out to some is pointless.
Posted by
CARPETBURN 8 months ago
Oh and course herdwick is a fan of people being ripped off, its clear he is either a multi shareholder in various things or works for an organisation (if you can call it that) like ofcom. Mind you in his defence its obvious he is not the only member here in that position.
Oh and course herdwick is a fan of people being ripped off, its clear he is either a multi shareholder in various things or works for an organisation (if you can call it that) like ofcom. Mind you in his defence its obvious he is not the only member here in that position.
Posted by
chrysalis 8 months ago
i dont doubt we have shareholders and ofcom members posting here as they will want to have arguments in favour of the organisations.
i dont doubt we have shareholders and ofcom members posting here as they will want to have arguments in favour of the organisations.
Posted by
pbsolo 8 months ago
As I posted on the other item from CARPETBURN, I ran a quick check on my Pipex 'unlimited' service to find it's very definitely limited. Throttled to the point of choking off!
It's not what I signed up for and to think that I migrated FROM 'Titscali' to avoid similar issues!
Yes, I am asking for a migration code ASAP! I'd advise everyone to do likewise!
As I posted on the other item from CARPETBURN, I ran a quick check on my Pipex 'unlimited' service to find it's very definitely limited. Throttled to the point of choking off!
It's not what I signed up for and to think that I migrated FROM 'Titscali' to avoid similar issues!
Yes, I am asking for a migration code ASAP! I'd advise everyone to do likewise!
Posted by
nrflux 8 months ago
Could all this be the reason we have not been able to connect to Tiscali on two days recently? I have used Tiscali for two years now and had very reliable connection until last week.
Could all this be the reason we have not been able to connect to Tiscali on two days recently? I have used Tiscali for two years now and had very reliable connection until last week.
Posted by
tdavid 8 months ago
I asked for a MAC from Pipex on the 24 Jan and it still is not available!! Has any one else had this problem and if so how was it resolved?
I asked for a MAC from Pipex on the 24 Jan and it still is not available!! Has any one else had this problem and if so how was it resolved?
Posted by
pwade 8 months ago
I requested a MAC from Tiscali on 22nd January, still heard nothing.
I have escalated this to Ofcom who assure me I'll get a MAC this week.
We'll see !!
Has anyone tried contacting "Customer Services" on Tiscali lately ?
They would be a joke if I wasn't so stressed with Tiscali.
pwade
I requested a MAC from Tiscali on 22nd January, still heard nothing.
I have escalated this to Ofcom who assure me I'll get a MAC this week.
We'll see !!
Has anyone tried contacting "Customer Services" on Tiscali lately ?
They would be a joke if I wasn't so stressed with Tiscali.
pwade
Posted by
DeusNK 8 months ago
I joined IDNET at the start of the new year, what joy. Had no problems getting a MAC code from pipex, they could'nt wait for me to leave.
Had 1mbit for 8 months and nother was done about it, ever. Worst service, worst customer service by far. But still, I got my MAC.
Cya Pipex, you won't be missed.
I joined IDNET at the start of the new year, what joy. Had no problems getting a MAC code from pipex, they could'nt wait for me to leave.
Had 1mbit for 8 months and nother was done about it, ever. Worst service, worst customer service by far. But still, I got my MAC.
Cya Pipex, you won't be missed.
Posted by
DeusNK 8 months ago
Now I get 700k down and 70k up. Cost's more, but I'm more than willing to pay for much better service.
Capped @ 60 gig a month - £34.99
Expensive, but it's not throttled for p2p.
Now I get 700k down and 70k up. Cost's more, but I'm more than willing to pay for much better service.
Capped @ 60 gig a month - £34.99
Expensive, but it's not throttled for p2p.
Posted by
pugwashtizzie 8 months ago
I have read most of the thread on this Pipex/Tiscali affair. It is quite clear that the general public (that includes us!) are totally disillusioned with big business and the regulatory authorities that are supposed to be looking after oour interests. They, including OFCOM, need to employ competent staff who actually do what they should be doing. Unfortunately, as many have said, we British are spineless and do nothing to demand that all this should change.
I have read most of the thread on this Pipex/Tiscali affair. It is quite clear that the general public (that includes us!) are totally disillusioned with big business and the regulatory authorities that are supposed to be looking after oour interests. They, including OFCOM, need to employ competent staff who actually do what they should be doing. Unfortunately, as many have said, we British are spineless and do nothing to demand that all this should change.
Posted by
rooland 8 months ago
I was a pipex user, Got a MAC code pipex talked me into staying with them by saying they would up the speed to 8mbps, and free phone calls, and all for under a tenner. But none of this transpired. When I enquired why the speed was so pitiful they would not address this agreement at all. They were hoping I would do the British thing and keep paying the £19.95. I excercised the Mac and have been delighted with O2. There helpline is so quick.
I was a pipex user, Got a MAC code pipex talked me into staying with them by saying they would up the speed to 8mbps, and free phone calls, and all for under a tenner. But none of this transpired. When I enquired why the speed was so pitiful they would not address this agreement at all. They were hoping I would do the British thing and keep paying the £19.95. I excercised the Mac and have been delighted with O2. There helpline is so quick.
Posted by
doughnut77 8 months ago
To AdrianXY - sorry if this sounds preachy, but maybe it's best to avoid (where possible) slugging down torrents at peak times. It ultimately forces ISP's to shape their traffic so they can provide reasonable QoS to all their clients, and so spoils the game for all of us. I tend to do my downloading overnight.
To AdrianXY - sorry if this sounds preachy, but maybe it's best to avoid (where possible) slugging down torrents at peak times. It ultimately forces ISP's to shape their traffic so they can provide reasonable QoS to all their clients, and so spoils the game for all of us. I tend to do my downloading overnight.
Posted by
CARPETBURN 8 months ago
quote"To AdrianXY - sorry if this sounds preachy, but maybe it's best to avoid (where possible) slugging down torrents at peak times. It ultimately forces ISP's to shape their traffic so they can provide reasonable QoS to all their clients, and so spoils the game for all of us. I tend to do my downloading overnight."
This is good advice for most people with most ISPs, unfortunately Pipex don’t actually tell you what times are OFF PEAK (they only quote peak time last time i checked that bit of their legal section. Oh and peak was something like 15-20 hours a day LOL... Pipex... pointless).
quote"To AdrianXY - sorry if this sounds preachy, but maybe it's best to avoid (where possible) slugging down torrents at peak times. It ultimately forces ISP's to shape their traffic so they can provide reasonable QoS to all their clients, and so spoils the game for all of us. I tend to do my downloading overnight."
This is good advice for most people with most ISPs, unfortunately Pipex don’t actually tell you what times are OFF PEAK (they only quote peak time last time i checked that bit of their legal section. Oh and peak was something like 15-20 hours a day LOL... Pipex... pointless).
You must be logged in to post comments. Click here to login.
If this is true then ALL Pipex users and Tiscali users should get a MAC code tomorrow morning. Will they?
Of course not they are British and what do the British do? They moan and they complain and they they pay and put up with it. Tiscali will do as they like without anyone stopping them as they are a private business and can do as they like. If we had a regulator of Telecoms it would be different.