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What will LR-VDSL do for the Universal Service Obligation?
Thursday 18 August 2016 12:47:51 by Andrew Ferguson

Long Reach VDSL has been in the background for almost a year now, and longer than that in the laboratory, and Isfield in Sussex has been taking part in a trial and Openreach is now expanding this trial to more locations. With the expansion of the trial and the progress in superfast roll-outs and improvements in our ability to model potential future changes we have revisited the estimates we made in September 2015.

We have run through six scenarios, which all start from the base line of the coverage levels that we were aware of at the time of doing the projects, and the scenarios vary from a very limited deployment of LR-VDSL to exchange areas where IPStream is the only exchange based service available, through to magical scenarios where every existing Openreach cabinet was enabled for LR-VDSL (even if not in any plans for VDSL2). This range of scenarios also give some insight as to where the UK is heading and while we have not made any changes to the levels of FTTP coverage in each one, the scenarios do show that as we head towards the 95% superfast target, and the ambition of going beyond, that infill cabinets and more native FTTP will be the order of the day.

For the performance of LR-VDSL we have worked on the basis of the speed achievable at various distances being the mid-point between the lab work speeds for LR-VDSL1 and LR-VDSL2.

Current UK broadband coverage and various models showing the effect LR-VDSL might have on UK broadband coverage levels. Figures 10th August 2016
% superfast
24 Mbps or faster
% superfast
30 Mbps or faster
% Under 2 Mbps USC % Under proposed 10 Mbps USO
Current UK Coverage Levels - VDSL2/FTTP/Cable
91.3% 90.7% 0.8% 4.1%
Scenario 1
LR-VDSL deployed on existing live cabinets on exchanges where IPStream ADSL service available but no ADSL2+ at all.
91.6% 91% 0.7% 3.9%
Scenario 2
LR-VDSL deployed on existing live and where we believe cabinet is planned and IPStream ADSL service available but no ADSL2+ at all.
93.1% 92.4% 0.7% 3.5%
Scenario 3
LR-VDSL deployed on existing live and where we believe cabinet is planned and IPStream ADSL and WBC ADSL2+ service available but no LLU.
93.3% 92.6% 0.7% 3.4%
Scenario 4
LR-VDSL deployed on all existing live cabinets and no ADSL or ADSL2+ at all from these cabinets.
94.7% 94.1% 0.45% 2.8%
Scenario 5
NO LR-VDSL deployed but those VDSL2 cabinets we believe are in existing plans are considered to be live.
92.7% 92% 0.8% 3.7%
Scenario 6
LR-VDSL deployed on cabinets irrespective whether live or in a plan or not. No changes assumed for Exchange only lines (i.e. still using ADSL or ADSL2+).
96.3% 96% 0.5% 2.2%

Scenario 5 may have some shouting that it shows that 95% superfast by the end of 2017 is impossible, but as we don't have magic visibility of all the plans there is going to be more cabinets enabled than our scenario used, plus we are seeing areas like Wales rolling out FTTP at a decent rate, such that Wales may surpass England for availability of GEA-FTTP very soon. Add to this the expansion of other operators such as Virgin Media, Hyperoptic, Gigaclear to name just three and it will all add up - hopefully.

The simplistic lesson from the scenarios seems to be that ADSL and ADSL2+ services are holding back the UK now, i.e. the LLU decision of 2005 by Ofcom which lead to historically low prices may now be holding back technology that could improve things. The reason that the presence of ADSL2+ makes is a difference is that to avoid existing VDSL2 and future LR-VDSL services causing problems the full capabilities are limited to avoid slowing down ADSL/ADSL2+ users. This explains the staggered removal of ADSL/ADSL2+ services in the scenarios, and while no-one will shed a tear if IPStream is removed and users moved wholesale to GEA-FTTC once LR-VDSL can offer the long reach things are more problematic once you reach exchanges with LLU based operators who have a financial interest in providing very low priced services with hardware they've installed in the last decade.

For those looking to see where the UK might head scenario 6 is crucial as it shows what is possible even if you stick to a VDSL2/LR-VDSL roll-out, though admittedly we expect some of the cabinets to be so small in footprint that FTTP might be more cost effective or a simple network rearrangement to place the dozen properties on an existing cabinet. Modelling the network rearrangement scenario, and what might also happen to the 2% of exchange only lines currently left in the UK is possible, but manually evaluating around 13 to 15,000 cabinets would take some months or a large team of people to do it in a short period.

The scenarios were recorded for UK, England, Scotland, Wales and the English regions, but we have skipped reproducing 14 areas with multiple figures for now, but one side effect of the work was information on the spread of exchange only lines across the UK.

Area
Areas ordered by descending size for overall number of premises
Percentage of premises thought to be using Exchange Only lines as of 10th August 2016
UK 2%
England 1.7%
London 1.4%
North West 0.9%
South West 2%
West Midlands 1%
East of England 0.9%
Scotland 5.5%
Yorkshire and Humberside 5.6%
South East 0.6%
Wales 1.3%
East Midlands 0.7%
North East 0.7%
Northern Ireland 1.7%

So the lesson to take away is that LR-VDSL can have a major impact in terms of meeting a Universal Service Obligation of 10 Mbps, but to push the number of non-USO lines down to under 1% we will need to be relying on a variety of options, including more FTTP, infill cabinets and maybe even fixed wireless (e.g. 4G LTE or WiMax). In a years time we will be in a much better position to evaluate things both because the roll-outs will be further down the road, but Ofcom and the Government may be a bit more firm in how a USO will be delivered and most importantly who will pay for it.

The recent Ofcom publication of responses to its USO consultation highlighted the range of views but whether its the public paying via a levy on broadband customers or centrally funded by general taxation we will end up paying one way or another. For the policy makers the big quandary is reaping the socio-economic impacts as fast as possible and for minimum outlay of public money, while also surviving any backlash against decisions made both from the public about roll-outs being slow and broadband firms looking after their own bottom line financially. One danger is that with the high profile FixBritainsInternet campaign is that both policy and implementation of any USO may get tied down by the decisions Ofcom is under pressure to make on the future of Openreach and delays for USO implementation will mean that satellite broadband providers can cash in as that is the fastest to deploy solution but probably the one least favoured by the public.

Comments

Posted by WWWombat 4 months ago
Great analysis, Andrew!

In the comments a year ago, I opined that a 2.5% increase in premises hitting superfast speeds, this was perhaps worth £300m of investment.

The scenarios above suggest that 2% could be reached without much impact on LLU, and a further 1.4% if we allow restrictions on LLU in some places. That increases the value to over £400m.

This *has* to be worth proper consideration, Ofcom.
Posted by WWWombat 4 months ago
We know that the recent 18/2 trials weren't for BTW, so must have been for an LLU company.

I wonder if the 18/2 product will become a sweetner to LLUs to allow some of their customers to migrate from an ADSL2+ LLU solution to FTTC VULA instead.

But otherwise, I tend to agree. LLU brought competition and cheapness for urban customers, but it has brought stagnation to the ignored rural areas. Time for some balance, Ofcom?
Posted by chilting 4 months ago
All those MP's with bulging postbags about poor rural broadband speeds would do well to look at this analysis.
Maybe they can actually do something to make a difference by paving the way to remove ADSL2.
Posted by Blackmamba 4 months ago
Hi Broadband Watchers.
As the PDF file on Openreach Exchanges must be very close to 100% coverage of the UK this will show movement on EO lines very quickly this is showing in South East section (.6) so .6 = only a few small exchanges that are not on the list. This will not show on the Red spot are it is only 0--4. Meg only on the long lines from the Exchange.
Posted by andrew (Favicon staff member) 4 months ago
100% coverage by exchange is irrelevant, since an exchange is on that list even if just 1 out of 20 cabinets is enabled for VDSl2. Hence campaigners moaning about the statistics some people use.

Also on it being a small number of exchanges, again exchange is irrelevant it is what serves a postcode that matters.

The map colours is about live VDSL2/FTTP not ADSL/ADSL2+ projections (but those are covered by USO/USC layers)
Posted by godsell4 4 months ago
In MarketA locations what is the barrier to removal of ADSL based connections? MarketA means there is no LLU right? If so this should happen as soon as practical.

Does that mean a person gets moved to VDSL2 at no cost too but rate limited to 8Mb or 24Mb dependig on what flavour of ADSL that exchange supported?
Posted by andrew (Favicon staff member) 4 months ago
Barrier: IPStream is a BT Wholesale product, LR-VDSL and GEA-FTTC are Openreach based, so not a straight swap and for ISP move from IPStream styles to WBC/WMBC backhaul.

So regulation and provider co-operation.
Posted by Blackmamba 4 months ago
Hi Andrew Staff.
You are not correct as Passfield Exchange ( Hants ) does not show on the list and it is all EO and that exchange covers a set of Post codes. I do not know if this Exchange is going to have a FTTC or be completely FTTC/P which would be the cheapest thus eliminating the Exchange. This will complete the 01428 area Surrey/Hants.
Posted by andrew (Favicon staff member) 4 months ago
Incorrect where and how?

Not showing on USC/USO layers means we believe ADSL/ADSL2+ speeds are above 10 Mbps for those lines.
Posted by chilting 4 months ago
To give customers the 10Mbps USC and provide for the final 10%, would it not be better if -
A, BT compensated the LLU operators for the removal of the ADSL2 service.
B, BDUK finished the rest of the job on an exchange when ADSL2 was removed using Fixed Wireless or 4G if needed.
C, Customers on ADSL were transferred to fibre without connection charges with the option for a low cost package.
Posted by TheEulerID 4 months ago
Presumably the 100% FTTC solution can be decided on a cabinet-by-cabinet basis and not exchange-by-exchange. That might help ease some of the LLU issues if it on affects a relatively small number of customers who get very poor speeds. That's certainly the case with by brother who gets sub-1mbps LLU. GEA-FTTC is available, but is forecast to give only 3-4 mbps (his cabinet is in another village). However, it would mean that LLU ADSL would be lost to other customers on that cabinet.
Posted by TheEulerID 4 months ago
@chilting

I don't understand why it would be BT compensating the LLU operators (who would compensate BTW?). However, it makes sense for there to be a lower cost speed-capped GEA-FTTC service for those customers who are forced to migrate.
Posted by chilting 4 months ago
@TheEulerID
I understand that, but someone has to compensate them for the loss of their investment.
BT would have the most to gain from removing ADSL so it is logical that they should compensate. It would make financial sense for BT even if they didn't like the idea of giving Sky some cash.
Posted by TheEulerID 4 months ago
@chilting

OR would only gain if the GEA-FTTC product for the capped ADSL-substitute product was priced high enough to get a return. If iy's a real bargain-basement wholesale price (which it would probably have to be), then that might wipe out the return.

In any event, expect a lot of rows over the level of that compensation for stranded assets.
Posted by chilting 4 months ago
@TheEulerID
If BT can justify the financial cost to their shareholders it will be OK.
Also Openreach will need lots of their resources for G.Fast so anything that can be done without to much effort will be good especially if it gets the rural lobby of its back.
Posted by godsell4 4 months ago
But in a MarketA exchange, what would be the 'stranded assets'? The cost to move the ISP from IPStream to WBC/WMBC is going to be not a lot I assume. Can OFCOM make BTW provide an 8Mb WBC/WMBC connection at current ADSL/IPStream costs?
Posted by TheEulerID 4 months ago
@godsell

We are specifically talking about exchanges where there are LLU operators.
Posted by WWWombat 4 months ago
@godsell
Market A isn't devoid of LLU. It is defined as limited competition ... "no more than 2 principle operators".
Posted by WWWombat 4 months ago
@chilting
You'd think that LLU operators would understand that their investment is time-limited, wouldn't you? That copper will not go on forever? Certainly they are demanding that Ofcom strands their assets by making Openreach install fibre.

IMHO, loss of LLU via the cabinets out to be a quid-pro-quo for BT deciding to take on the USO mantle.

All is negotiable...
Posted by WWWombat 4 months ago
out -> ought
Posted by WWWombat 4 months ago
@Andrew
A staggering percent of EO lines in Yorkshire & Humberside, compared to other parts of England. Any idea of the reason?

Or does it come down to the usual explanations: KCOM slow but FTTP; SYDR late to the BDUK party; Kirklees staying out of SFWY-1; EY slow to sign?
Posted by andrew (Favicon staff member) 4 months ago
KCOM does not figure in EO figures.

Some areas just have more EO than others, for some odd historical reason and not old enough to know all the reasons.
Posted by merlin617 4 months ago
I have tried to make sense of the above so could someone fill in the blanks for me. I am in London on an exchange only line, (400 mitres electrical length I am told from the exchange) which of these scenarios will allow us to be free of ADSL2+ and onto BT fibre ?

Thanks
Posted by andrew (Favicon staff member) 4 months ago
None of them, what Openreach does with EO lines is down to whether a BDUK project is in the area (and not for most of London). Doing EO changes commercially is very very rare.
Posted by Bin216 4 months ago
Is there a fundamental problem putting VDSL equipment in the exchange for these short exchange only lines (like the aforementioned 400 meter line)?

Am I correct in assuming that the legacy ADSL services is the impediment to doing that and necessitating street side cabs or FTTP?
Posted by WWWombat 4 months ago
The ANFP - the Ofcom-sanctioned agreement of spectrum usage on BT metallic paths - forbids use of VDSL2 from the exchange. Certainly in terms of the spectrum, but I think from the PSD (power-spectrum density) too.

One of the main problems is that you create impossible levels of interference, and hence slow speeds, if a cable bundle carries both VDSL2 from the exchange and from the cabinet, so you would need to take administrative care to prevent this.
...
Posted by WWWombat 4 months ago
That leads to competitive/regulatory issues. What if Sky want to run VDSL2 from the exchange, while BT want to run it from the cabinet? And what about vectoring for two DSLAMs in the exchange?

If you are willing to live with administrative restrictions, it is possible. However ... any line using exchange-VDSL would /have/ to migrate to a cabinet service if a cab was added. This extra work is now being seen on AIO cabs - and if significant numbers of lines were involved, it would make things costly.
...
Posted by WWWombat 4 months ago
NICC did a study of this in 2014:
http://www.niccstandards.org.uk/files/current/ND1517V1.1.1.pdf?type=pdf
Posted by WWWombat 4 months ago
@andrew
That NICC document I just linked to...

It has some great tables, describing the D-side:E-side proportions for lots of lines that are within 1.3km of the exchange (ie the lines that would find exchange-based services useful).

That seemed to indicate that 25% of such lines (on market 2+3 exchanges) were EO lines.
Posted by WWWombat 4 months ago
Building on those statistics...

The 2008 Sagentia report reckons 5% of all lines had a combined D+E length of 1.2km or less - which is the pool of lines that the NICC document would cover.

From that, I guess we have a good idea of the makeup of the 1% of all lines that are both EO and 1.2km or shorter.
Posted by WWWombat 4 months ago
@merline617
How many are "us"?

Someone on this site (or the forum) has gone through BT's community-funding route to get their EO lines converted into a PCP with FTTC cabinet, within London.

In the rest of the country, BDUK subsidies end up covering these costs. In London, there is no BDUK funding, so you might achieve something faster yourself.

Expect it to cost a few tens of thousands, so you'll need a few homes to share with. If a school is covered, BT themselves might cover half of the subsidy.
Posted by Blackmamba 4 months ago
Hi Andrew Staff.
I have rechecked on Passfield Exchange Hants 100+ customers and it is not on the Openreach list and is not showing on Sam Knows but there are low speed tests TBB on post code around the exchange position. I would think that ADLS+2 is not fitted and all the lines are EO so I would count all the lines unable to get above 10 meg and would be incorporated in the South East results.
Posted by godsell4 4 months ago
To get to 99% 10Mb/s USO coverage, it was stated they would consider line bonding, if there are enough good pairs. I guess that explains why they have built 288 port cabinets even in rural locations so they have spare ports. But the quality of the lines is going to be a problem. Did the analysis allow for line bonding?
Posted by andrew (Favicon staff member) 4 months ago
No line bonding was not taken into account. Neither was options like using more FTTP, or adding infill VDSL2 cabinets.

We've seen enough roll-out we might be able to predict that side of things, but as we highlighted that would need manual review of around 15,000 cab areas, plus all the EO areas.
Posted by Somerset 4 months ago
@BM - Passfield serves 460 premises. Some in the Hampshire plan.
Posted by dandodex 4 months ago
@WWWombat @andrew

But there is no BDUK in London because it was considered that BT could convert to superfast commercially... Are you correct when you say that there have been very few EO rearrangements commercially? Even in London where it was supposed to be cheaper than rural?

London EC1 here (who got really lucky when VM did a couple of houses in his street 3 years ago, but some neighbours still can only get BT's 6-7Mbps)
Posted by dandodex 4 months ago
Also, does my getting VM 3 years ago mean the neighbours with only Openreach available in my same postcode won't qualify for USO 10Mbps? (if only postcode is taken into account like for BDUK)
Posted by merlin617 4 months ago
@WWWombat


The 'Us' I could not determine right now.


I have already been in touch with Openreach who determined that for a cabinet to be put in my road they would like to be blessed with £50K. The scheme to ofset the cost of fibre broadband for local businesses ( £3K ) would kick in after they have installed the box.

Our local GLC Councillor has been pushing to get this resolved for two years.
Posted by andrew (Favicon staff member) 4 months ago
Are you correct when you say that there have been very few EO rearrangements commercially?

I believe I am correct, there are some that have happened, and some on the way, but nothing of the scale like we've seen in Scotland.
Posted by andrew (Favicon staff member) 4 months ago
NO ONE has ever stated that by left out of the BDUK process that commercial operators are to be made to provide 100% coverage, simply that the market has not failed and is delivering a lot more in London compared to other parts of the UK.

Chunks of London are not doing well, but overall as a region it is the best part of the UK.
Posted by dandodex 4 months ago
@andrew
I see you mean, Greater London is way above 95% without public subsidy.

Central London (tube Zone 1 area?) is where is falls way below under 95%. It seems difficult to estimate superfast % (i.e Islington is 94.8% superfast, but its bit in zone 1 is mostly long EO).

The figures for City of Westminster (74.7%) and City of London (40.3%) give an idea of the failure within Zone 1.
Posted by dandodex 4 months ago
Seeing as the population of central London and Wales are similar, it seems an oversight to address the second but not the first. Unless it is considered the private sector will address it. It appears it has not.

I have gone through the tool at http://labs.thinkbroadband.com/local/ but couldn't find it. Is there any way I can use it to generate stats for central London?
Posted by dandodex 4 months ago
(I see WHAT you mean)
Posted by andrew (Favicon staff member) 4 months ago
https://labs.thinkbroadband.com/local/index.php?tab=2&election=1 zoom in on the map and look at the constituency that most closely matches Zone 1.

We don't use TFL zones because (a) does not map to whole UK (b) no easy to use way of mapping postcodes to each zone

As for Wales, am sure the people of Wales would disagree with you. Remember in commercial areas, its not just Openreach, but Virgin Media, IFNL, Hyperoptic, Community Fibre, Relish (Keycom) and many more who play a role in serving homes in the capital.
Posted by dandodex 4 months ago
Correct, but the percentages I got from http://labs.thinkbroadband.com/local/ include not just Openreach, correct?

Unfortunately there isn't a group of Boroughs that represent central London. Central London was specifically broken into all the Inner London Boroughs so that they could all have a little bit in the centre, which is what makes it so difficult to get good stats.
Posted by dandodex 4 months ago
Or in other words, in central London the combination of Openreach, Virgin Media, IFNL, Hyperoptic, Community Fibre and Relish (Keycom) are providing around 75% superfast (or something like that).

I am not saying Wales should have less % than central London, I am saying that I can't see how it makes sense to accept central London having such poor percentage and no plan after 5-10 years of upgrades.
Posted by andrew (Favicon staff member) 4 months ago
Openreach is broken out if you had not noticed, as is Virgin Media cable.

The FTTH providers are also discernible by looking at the FTTH figures.

National plan in place at present is 95% superfast by end of 2017 and guess where Greater London is currently?

Nothing was stopping councils running their own project, other than costs and red tape.
Posted by andrew (Favicon staff member) 4 months ago
If you have a CSV that maps the postcodes to the area known as Central London may look at implementing, but it needs to be recognised area, rather than just a random line drawn up on a map.
Posted by Blackmamba 4 months ago
Thanks Somerset over Passfield Exchange customers 460 I feel the area will be hit with fibre from Liphook,Bordonand Headley Down that could be why it is not on Sam Knows.
Posted by Somerset 4 months ago
@BM - as usual you make no sense, what do you mean about SamKnows?
Posted by Blackmamba 4 months ago
Hi Somerset.
I am unable to get access to Passfield Exchange on SamKnows Website so are unable to check services. I do know there are EO lines on Passfield Exchange total ?. I think there may be Cabs also locations ? when I worked in the area all lines were EO so have been watching on Elgin for groundwork. The exchange area is small and the cables run via the roads.
Posted by andrew (Favicon staff member) 4 months ago
No cabinets on that exchange at this time, and if it was to go full FTTP no need ever for any
Posted by Somerset 4 months ago
Or one PCP and FTTC cab outside the exchange?
Posted by andrew (Favicon staff member) 4 months ago
Or left to wait for the USO to kick in.

Some behave as if 100% superfast has been funded and in the process of being delivered.
Posted by Blackmamba 4 months ago
Hi Somerset.
If this is the case the Cab is by the old Kiosk by providing one new FTTC/P may only be required this would cover all the low results on TBB maps. On Elgin there are two FTTC to be fitted in the next two Weeks in the Liphook area and this shows low results on TBB maps also. I have been watching Passfield for a person who works in the Business Park opposite the old Exchange. Thanks.
Posted by andrew (Favicon staff member) 4 months ago
For those not in the know Elgin is the roadworks.org website and is a good place to see what ducting/roadworks is going on.
Posted by TheEulerID 4 months ago
If there was ever a case for allowing VDSL from the exchange, it's surely places like Passfield, especially if it was a VDSL-LR variant which could reuse the ADSL2 frequencies. It would mean a forced migration (so needs a low-cost capped wholesale service) and a lot of coordination. Just using the exchange would save a lot of recabling, power & environment work and it looks like the vast majority would get at lease the 10mbps USO level.
Posted by Blackmamba 4 months ago
Hi EulerID
As this Exchange Passfield Old UAX that I covered is ideal for your remarks if they off load a few customers to fibre to the other exchanges areas EG. Liphook, Headley Down and Bordon this method was used back in the 1970 changing line resistance from 800 to 1200 Ohms it is now easer to use fibre to the DP by overlaying and keeping the metallic link giving SFB access to all.
Posted by fastman 4 months ago
blackmanmba not sue what you are on about frankly

I have no view of pasfield and whether it is EO or not -- BDUk will have a view depeonding on what county it is in regarless of FTTC/FTTP the exchange will not be elimanated. it will stll have voice and ADSL the say way it des to day -- The fibre will be glassed through from the headend but wont change the exchange status

not quite sore what an unenabled exchange in surry has to do with long line VDSl which is around extending VDSL on existing enabled infrastructure
Posted by fastman 4 months ago

I have already been in touch with Openreach who determined that for a cabinet to be put in my road they would like to be blessed with £50K. The scheme to ofset the cost of fibre broadband for local businesses ( £3K ) would kick in after they have installed the box.

Our local GLC Councillor has been pushing to get this resolved for two years.

Really 50k I doubt that very much -- I suggest you were given a range of 25 - 50k and have not progressed it - so saying 50k is not correct
Posted by fastman 4 months ago
dandondex - Really 50k I doubt that very much -- I suggest you were given a range of 25 - 50k and have not progressed it - so saying 50k is not correct
Posted by fastman 4 months ago
blackmanba

As this Exchange Passfield Old UAX that I covered is ideal for your remarks if they off load a few customers to fibre to the other exchanges areas EG. Liphook, Headley Down and Bordon this method was used back in the 1970

for the avoidance of doubt openreach cannot worsen ADSL and will not migrate people from one exchange to another for the improvement of broadband experience

what a former GPO state Telecoms business did in the 1970's and what openreach is able to do today are a world away and comments above are unehelpful and extremely misleading
Posted by Blackmamba 4 months ago
Hi Fastman.
If possible can you explain why I am unable to pick up the data on Sam Knows on Passfield Exchange over the last two years.. The problem with the long lines today that require broadband is due to the offload of exchanges in the 1970 using different gauge wire 40/70/ CC.
Posted by Blackmamba 4 months ago
Hi Fastman.
If you check on TBB Maps using the new formate using 2 meg 10 meg colour section you may understand where the new type Cabs can be installed even G/fast EG Belstead off Copdock Exchange.
Posted by CarlThomas 4 months ago
Wouldn't it perhaps be better to ask Samknows about their data?

Fibre / NGA doesn't really care about exchanges. Most exchanges do not have any NGA equipment in them at all. Comparisons to past copper rearrangements are invalid and eventually most exchanges will close.
Posted by CarlThomas 4 months ago
As an example these customers aren't going to Liphook, it has no NGA equipment. Neither do Headley Down or Bordon. Bordon's customers use equipment at Alton, Liphook and Headley Down cabinets are parented by Haslemere.

Copdock does not parent Belstead, Copdock has no NGA equipment. The NGA headend for both is Ipswich.
Posted by Blackmamba 4 months ago
Hi CarlThomas and Others.
Have just e/mailed Sam knows. I do know which Exchange Haslemere (01428) is parent of so you have proved my point where the fibre runs and the future layout. This is all highlighted on the NEW TBB maps format if you switch section even the fibre runs at Elstead on Wormley which people disputed with me also the overlaying of Cabinets runs.
Posted by fastman 4 months ago
blackmamba

for the avoidance of doubt openreach cannot worsen ADSL and will not migrate people from one exchange to another for the improvement of broadband experience they will remain on the exchange they are today !!!!!

Posted by Somerset 4 months ago
@BM - try https://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/THPS
Posted by Somerset 4 months ago
@BM - how do the maps show fibre runs? Which section?

'the overlaying of Cabinets runs' Please explain.
Posted by cyberdoyle 4 months ago
In a nutshell, LR-VDSL is another pathetic stop gap patch on an obsolete phone network. The plan is to keep sweating the copper in this way, and calling it 'fibre broadband' and carry on buying mobile companies and content. In a few years openreach will be handed over to whichever government is in power to do the job properly, with real investment in the infrastructure. We need fibre, moral and optic, not this botch up. Leave BT alone to do what their shareholders want, and invest in alternative networks to do the job properly and provide some much needed competition.
Posted by 2doorsbob 4 months ago
I'm around 900 to 1000 metres away from cab and get 41 meg I wonder if BT would consider lines like mine to see if speed could be increased
Posted by CarlThomas 4 months ago
@2doorsbob the maximum speed of LR-VDSL will be 40Mb.

That said, if you are on a cabinet where it is enabled you should see some improvement as all lines on the cabinet will have vectoring enabled which helps cancel interference between lines.
Posted by CarlThomas 4 months ago
@cyberdoyle As far as I'm aware, Chris, this is a purely commercial thing. No taxpayer funding.

It's not great, for sure, but it's a very quick and cheap solution that might help some people get better speeds sooner rather than later.
Posted by fastman 4 months ago
cyberdoyle

In a few years openreach will be handed over to whichever government is in power to do the job properly, with real investment in the infrastructure. We need fibre, moral and optic, not this botch up.

Botch up passed 25m premises and covered 90% of the uk with speeds inexcess of 24 /mpbs and increasing !!!!

Telecomms will never a state service ever again
Posted by fastman 4 months ago
if you are 900 - 1000m from cab and get 41 you are very fortunate and that more than I would have expected
Posted by Blackmamba 4 months ago
Hi Somerset.
If you go to TBB Maps and highlight the fibre runs for the Wormley Area you will notice that the fibre fans outwards from the old Cab 7 (Donkey Sanctory Brook Road) towards the main A3 Post Codes this run has been payed for by SCC plus some customers paying for on their property. This also shows at ELstead on the Cab by the River towards Runfold Exchange. If you toggle on different sections you can see the problems where work is not completed yet.
Posted by andrew (Favicon staff member) 4 months ago
@blackmamba I've coded the tbb Maps site and I don't understand what you mean by 'fibre runs'. The site is only showing postcodes where a VDSL or for 1% FTTP service is available, nothing to do with where the fibre feeding cabinets goes.
Posted by Blackmamba 4 months ago
Hi Somerset.
If you look at the map Wormley Area you will find that the Post Codes have a (set GPS position) so track back via the roads and tracks that have either the old overhead or UG ducting this is where the existing fibre runs on customers that have fibre to the home/ DP. These fibres will run and be terminated at a node then to the NGA access either Haslemere or Goddalming.
Posted by andrew (Favicon staff member) 4 months ago
Any back tracking is in your mind @blackmamba

Also no-one has fibre to the DP, there are premises in Sandhills and Brook with Fibre to the Home at standard pricing as their superfast service.
Posted by Somerset 4 months ago
@BM - Would it be possible to write in clear English so we understand what you are trying to say.

Are you saying look at StreetView?
Posted by Blackmamba 4 months ago
Hi Somerset.
Just use TBB maps and use the tile section then toggle to the sections you require which is illerstrated by using colour on the Post Code GPS position. Once you have the post code GPS you can use Google Maps and backtrack to the FTTC/P to get the estermated speed (distance). I am using the same method as Pezza Express Website.
Posted by AndyCZ 4 months ago
@ Blackmamba....where do you get your information from?

"On Elgin there are two FTTC to be fitted in the next two Weeks in the Liphook area and this shows low results on TBB maps also."

We're talking about cabinets 12 and 25 here. Both are still in the build stage, with RFS estimates of 30/09/2016 and 31/03/2017. It's likely the Cabinet 12 RFS estimate will slip as the connection and activation stages are still to come.
Posted by 2doorsbob 4 months ago
Have BT managed to sort G.inp and vectoring on ECI cabs anyone..? as my line is suffering from crosstalk
Posted by Blackmamba 4 months ago
Hi Andy.
I get most of my information from Elgin using day session and the three month session this gives me the option to visit Openreach or contractors over the work they are doing. Over the last 3 years I have checked Cabs across the Surrey area to see if the are available to customers. I did work for BT and have no problems getting information I am just waiting to visit a fibre when the work starts.
Posted by Blackmamba 4 months ago
Hi Somerset
I did contact the staff on Sam Knows and the get their data from Openreach website where and when list which is updated ever Thursday.
Posted by CarlThomas 4 months ago
@2doorsbob Everyone's line suffers from crosstalk. Very few cabinets will get vectoring, Huawei or ECI. G.inp is a work in progress on ECI.
Posted by 2doorsbob 4 months ago
@CarlThomas cheers fella
Posted by fastman 4 months ago
blackmamaba - thst fact that you did work for BT is neither here nor there -- you don't now !!! and you should not be getting that information
Posted by dandodex 4 months ago
@andrew : If you have a CSV that maps the postcodes to the area known as Central London may look at implementing, but it needs to be recognised area, rather than just a random line drawn up on a map.

Proper central London are all the postcodes starting EC or WC (east of central and west of central). I do not have the full list of all of them, but I suspect you do? (as the rule is simply .startsWith("EC") or .startsWith("WC") and you already have a database with all the postcodes in the country)

It would be really really interesting to see which % superfast in central London please.
Posted by andrew (Favicon staff member) 4 months ago
Already do postcode splits but to the WC1V level etc(though these are a little out of date - 6 weeks or so)

WC varies from 9.5% to 97.9% superfast
EC varies from 1.2% to 100% superfast

Grouping them up to WC and EC (i.e. letter only groups is feasible if there is a case of beer in it)
Posted by New_Londoner 4 months ago
@Andrew
If you wanted to map Central London using a reasonably well know definition, the Central Activity Zone would make sense - it was designated by the Mayor.
Posted by andrew (Favicon staff member) 4 months ago
Again a nice shapefile, but no simple postcode version to work with. So either CSV of the postcodes or a couple of days work to figure out a conversion system.
Posted by dandodex 4 months ago
The CAZ is a much better area to cover central London than what I proposed, but I haven't been able to find a list of postcodes in http://data.london.gov.uk/ or https://data.gov.uk/

Here are all active WC postcodes:
https://www.doogal.co.uk/UKPostcodesCSV.ashx?Search=WC&active=true

And here all active EC postcodes:
https://www.doogal.co.uk/UKPostcodesCSV.ashx?Search=EC&active=true

Anyone has any tool to select a subset of longitude/latitude points within a defined area?
Posted by andrew (Favicon staff member) 4 months ago
Links to the WC and EC postcodes are of no use, have all those, otherwise how could we do the maps like http://maps.thinkbroadband.com/#!lat=51.4609740694832&lng=-0.010985207031222188&zoom=11&type=terrain&tbb-fibre-speeds
Posted by dandodex 4 months ago
What is it that you need? Just the beer then? ;-)
Posted by dandodex 4 months ago
You have the database, with columns for postcode, number of premises and % superfast.

You need beer to grease a select on postcodes like 'ec%' or 'wc%' and do a weighted average of its percentages based of number of premises?
Posted by andrew (Favicon staff member) 4 months ago
Weighted average? Why would there be weighting involved?

Was going to sit down and create the table to store results and tweaks to ensure the processing was done when everything else updates - remember this is not a static dataset later today but pestering tends to mean I don't bother.
Posted by dandodex 3 months ago
It was not my intention to pester, so apologies if it came out like that.
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