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Origin shows what speeds VDSL2 can achieve
Saturday 07 April 2012 10:21:10 by Andrew Ferguson

Digital Region broadband providers are ensuring they are not left behind in the speed competition, as Origin Broadband has announced the details of its faster than 40 Mbps service Origin Max. The £35.50 per month service will run VDSL2 at the fastest possible speeds, so while some will receive 50Mbps, 70Mbps, there will be some managing to break the mythical 100 Mbps barrier. Pre-orders for the Max product are being taken now, with activations starting 1st May 2012.

The product page includes a dozen example speeds along with distance to the cabinet measured for lines which have had the service activated, and these help to show what VDSL2 is capable of in the UK.

Distance to Cabinet Downstream Upstream
147 m 106 Mbps 22 Mbps
171 m 121 Mbps 27 Mbps
183 m 98 Mbps 9 Mbps
245 m 104 Mbps 21.6 Mbps
248 m 107 Mbps 27 Mbps
269 m 98 Mbps 27 Mbps
392 m 81.5 Mbps 19.8 Mbps
416 m 96 Mbps 30 Mbps
490 m 76 Mbps 24.2 Mbps
612 m 56 Mbps 22 Mbps
857 m 32 Mbps 8.5 Mbps
1372 m 22 Mbps 1.7 Mbps

The suggestion from these figures is that if the distance from your home to the street cabinet is under 400 metre long, then speeds around the 80 Mbps mark should be possible. The performance all the way out to 1000m (1km) is interesting as it looks like 25 Mbps is possible, and with 90% of telephone lines having 1km or less of cable to their street cabinet, the scale of the difference VDSL2 offers compared to ADSL2+ becomes apparent.

Comments

Posted by cyberdoyle over 2 years ago
So anyone within 1km of a cab will be on 'superfast'. the rest won't. The digital divide looms even wider.
Some cabs won't even be enabled, and some only have capacity for the first few hundred...
Good news for those near the cabinets that are working, but serious stuff if the government wants to lead the world because it isn't looking like we will with loads on slower speeds and many still stuck sub megabit on long lines. At least digital region is trying...
Posted by Somerset over 2 years ago
So cd, BT will get similar numbers. And BT isn't trying? Pathetic comment.

So you have latched on to cabinet capacity, this is the daft Ewhurst comment, heard of expanding them when there is actual demand?
Posted by otester over 2 years ago
@cyberdoyle

It's all about the % covered, they don't actually care nor most probably intend to cover everyone.

That's the government for ya...
Posted by joe_pineapples over 2 years ago
Maybe they can run a line length check once everything is in place, but I know pre-install they only use geographical distance to the cab. So I dont really follow the usefulness of such a guide either way. Perhaps someone from Origin can comment?.
Posted by themanstan over 2 years ago
CD stop spouting down right lies... it's getting more than pathetic.
The divide is not getting wider it's getting narrower. The more people given the opportunity to connect the less the divide. It doesn't work the other way.

When a fibre cab reaches capacity they put another one in if there is demand (and that is the crucial economic issue). Plus the EU expects VULA to be temporary and ISPs to SLU within a few years, so why have more capacity than there will be a market for?
Posted by themanstan over 2 years ago

And here is your proof of speeds in excess of 100Mb from "copper"... and it's not BT either. Are you going to hold up your hand and say you were wrong on this?

~85% of d-side cabinet lengths are less than 1km, with 70% being 500m or less (~75 Mbps).
Posted by themanstan over 2 years ago
There are plenty of people out in the UK on slow speeds out of choice.

50% of the UK can connect to VM 100Mbps, but they chose not to. By the end of 2014 66% will have a choice to connect via FTTC, but many will choose not to. This is where average connection speed stats falls down, it doesn't allow for I choose to be at this slow speed when they accumulate the data.
Posted by mikecrawford80 over 2 years ago
These figures look to be real world estimates. I'm 950m from my PCP and get 27 down 6.1 up.

Hopefully vectoring could improve on this if it is ever enabled.
Posted by otester over 2 years ago
@themanstan

I know a lot of people who won't touch VM even though their DSL connection is less than 5Mbps due to one or more reasons such as:

-High latency.
-Packet loss.
-STM.
-Traffic shaping.
-Usage limits (AUP).
Posted by otester over 2 years ago
And inconsistant speeds.
Posted by herdwick over 2 years ago
"many still stuck sub megabit on long lines" - a few, statistically speaking. A big deal to them, and apparently to you, but not statistically significant in the big picture.
Posted by themanstan over 2 years ago
@otester

Are you suggesting VM need to recapitalize their network with fibre to overcome most of these issues?
Posted by arfster over 2 years ago
Tasty - my line is 50m or so to the cabinet, maybe 140mbit max? :-)
Posted by themanstan over 2 years ago
Mike I think we'll see someone like Origin try vectoring first. BT is too slow and big to roll-out this first.
Posted by tommy45 over 2 years ago
Well lokking at the table above me thinks someone got it wrong as how does
147 m 106 Mbps 22 Mbps
171 m 121 Mbps 27 Mbps
Make any sense? surely it should be the 171mtr getting less speed not more ? this is repeated more than once so could lead to some confusion too
Posted by tommy45 over 2 years ago
Not to mention the fact that it could be deemed as both incorrect and misleading
Posted by themanstan over 2 years ago
These are real figures, so line quality between can and end user is a factor. So a long full copper line with good connections will be better than a short alu line with poor connections.
Posted by themanstan over 2 years ago
"between can" and connections should be joints.
Posted by otester over 2 years ago
@themanstan

Investment in capacity, just look at BT, each user on an FTTC cabinet is dedicated 10Mbps (IIRC) locally.

At one point on DOCSIS 2.0 on VM it was like 38Mbps for the whole cabinet, I think the maximum speed then was 10/20Mbps.

@tommy45

You also have to take each lines condition into account including whether it is aluminium or copper.
Posted by themanstan over 2 years ago
"Cab" pesky iPhone spell nonsense
Posted by AndrueC over 2 years ago
@themanstan:You had me at 'pesky iPhone' :P
Posted by Originb over 2 years ago
Hi, As many people have been making clear. The Origin Max product is closely linked to line quality. A better cable will achieve a higher maximum attainable speed, but stability must be taken into account when factoring exactly what people should expect.
We run initial checks on the line but, we cannot be certain of its quality until the install has taken place. We offer everyone the option to downgrade to the lower packages if they do not achieve any tangible benefits.
Posted by GMAN99 over 2 years ago
"So anyone within 1km of a cab will be on 'superfast'." - Which errr is the vast majority of the UK so.. great news!

With the majority of those being less than 500m so speeds in excess of 70Mbps, again great news.

I'm not sure what "loads" being on slow speeds means and I'm not sure you do either CD. More moaning as usual but this is good news all round for the majority of the UK.
Posted by mattyatty1 over 2 years ago
I am connected to the Digital Region network via Origin and I have to say I think that this product is a great step forward for Origin in showing their commitment to bring the best possible speeds using FTTC technology. The local business is doing what they can to bring the best possible speed to everyone in South Yorkshire, I am pretty sure if there was more networks like Digital Region, Origin would be bringing you guys faster speeds too! If you’re moaning about poor speed then move to South Yorkshire and choose Origin as your ISP – simple!!
Posted by mattyatty1 over 2 years ago
Also, the ‘real life’ figures are 100% accurate as the distance is determined using geographical measurement, then line statistics are then taken from the sync speed at the end users premises, I know there right because my example is one of them! Whilst distance to the cabinet is a major factor with FTTC products, each individual line is unique in terms of its quality, cable type and joints in the underground network so people further away on a good copper pair may achieve better than someone closer to the cab on aluminium. Its great there showing the variants and been as up front as possible
Posted by pcoventry76 over 2 years ago
@ mattyatty1

I lived in Sheffield, had DR got less than I do now on VM even when it's throttled.

So left it and Sheffield behind :)
Posted by andrew (Favicon staff member) over 2 years ago
http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/research/technology-research/asses.pdf

Now some real data on cabinet home line lengths so people can discuss. Page 4 and page 5
Posted by themanstan over 2 years ago
p5 is what i've been quoting for D-sides.
Posted by agentwalker over 2 years ago
Would be interesting to see if any deals are possible with this new package? i.e. Only recently signed up in the Inferno package which cost £75 install cost compared to £55 on the new one.
Then on top of that don't really need to new hardware offered with the new package.

So any possibilities in a slight reduction in the monthly cost for x number of months? would be tempted if that was the case.
Posted by andrew (Favicon staff member) over 2 years ago
Have had the rough figures in my head from meetings years ago, but had not got a decent link before.
Posted by themanstan over 2 years ago
Andrew

Nice to have all the figures in one document, i read this a while ago but forgot to save the link, only found it again recently.

My interpretation is that if vectoring does what it says on the tin and fig.14 speeds hold true, a little bit more than 95% of homes can be connected at 100Mbps in the future. But vectoring alone would bring 95% of connected households above the 25 Mbps threshold with the current VDSL2 17a protocol.
Posted by New_Londoner over 2 years ago
This document really makes a nonsense of the first post made against the story. From what I've seen with vectoring and Profile 17a, anyone on lines < 1km to a cabinet should easily get > 24Mbps, the capcity graphs in the document paint a very interesting picture of what could utlimately be possible.

Suggests anyone thinking of putting in an FTTP overlay network in any but the most remote areas is really going to struggle to show much of a performance benefit vs FTTC over the long-term. Makes things v.difficult for cable too!
Posted by LeJimster over 2 years ago
This is what I've been waiting for. I've never understood why Digital Region have been matching BT's speeds for so long and not offering a product like this sooner. My line is 450-550 meters long so there probably won't be a huge benefit over the 40Mb/10Mb service. But it's great to have the option.
Posted by cyberdoyle over 2 years ago
Agree NewLondoner. They have pretty much wowed the copperfanboys with their cabinets eh?

Also my original comment stands, the digital divide will grow wider, because this technology will only help those who already have what many consider adequate connectivity. If it does what they wan't they won't change. Lots are happy with a few meg. Its the ones who have very little who need help.
Posted by cyberdoyle over 2 years ago
Themanstan, its a theoretical document. that's all. written for ofcom.
"The project was commissioned in order to try to establish a theoretical, rather than practical, limit;
· The degree of which practical implementation can get close to the theoretical limit is not investigated within the project;"
Posted by themanstan over 2 years ago
So you mean the width for those who don't, who will become a smaller and smaller minority? Because as it stands projects like those in EU/BT/Cornwall and B4RN and eventually BDUK, will reduce the numbers substantially.
Posted by themanstan over 2 years ago
Yes that document is theoretical (and it's 4 years old and vectoring was still theory), but vectoring is no longer theoretical, it's in use in Belgium and several other countries. It's much like when people said that VDSL would never exceed 50 Mbps, then hey presto someone develops the technology based on a theory and voila 120 Mbps VDSL2.
Keep ignoring the facts CD, technology will stretch the available infrastructure for as long as it viable.
As for the final 10%, that's around the same numbers as those not on the Gas grid... and for the same reasons...
Posted by creakycopperline over 2 years ago
Posted by GMAN99 about 8 hours ago
"So anyone within 1km of a cab will be on 'superfast'." - Which errr is the vast majority of the UK so.. great news!

With the majority of those being less than 500m so speeds in excess of 70Mbps, again great news.

I'm not sure what "loads" being on slow speeds means and I'm not sure you do either CD. More moaning as usual but this is good news all round for the majority of the UK.
you mean the 2 3rds of the uk, the rest BT don't give a monkeys about unless they can screw some cash out of them
Posted by themanstan over 2 years ago
Agreed Creaky, I think we'll know by Autumn how successful BT have been at milking the BDUK cash donkey. I was going to say cow but it's not really that much money compared to what UKgov usually squanders.
Posted by GMAN99 over 2 years ago
creaky you mean "the rest NO-ONE" gives a monkey about, no telco goes where's there's no profit.

And its not exactly one third of the UK its a lot less look at the figures.

"digital divide will grow wider, because this technology will only help those who already have what many consider adequate connectivity." Total rubbish, there will be many within 500m of their cabinet but miles from their exchange which means FTTC will be a massive improve, myself included.
Posted by GMAN99 over 2 years ago
creaky, so what would you rather happen, BDUK allows the telco of choice to cover upfront costs quicker , its that or no upgrade at all (they wouldn't go there), so.. what is your solution?

CD instead of moaning about this ever shrinking minority you should be encouraging more B4RN upstarts to solve the problem yourself, JFDI as you say!
Posted by andrew (Favicon staff member) over 2 years ago
FTTC is less than ideal, but given no-one, consumers, teleco or government is willing to spend for FTTP then it is the best we can do.

There is a point at which one has to accept you are working with the resources you are, and make the best of them.

If people part with their money for the fastest FTTP packages where they are available then we can expect more roll-out of that in future.
Posted by GMAN99 over 2 years ago
Exactly, some people want fibre or nothing but the majority of people just want a cheap stable decent download speed, despite some of the vocalists on here not everyone wants FTTP or the speed it brings.

FTTC will do most for years and those that want more can get FTTP on demand.
Posted by herdwick over 2 years ago
FTTC - capital cost £100 per line
FTTP - cost of capital £100 per year per line

now let me think.........
Posted by creakycopperline over 2 years ago
wrote gmann99 telco goes where's there's no profit. so there's money in remote villages outside oxfordshire? typical private sector solves everything attitude, america uses that line, and look how screwed up they are. and they are after BDUK government cash? bank bailouts etc.
they all sing the praises of the private sector, until they go tits up. RBS should of been allowed to go bust! live by the sword, die by the sword.
Posted by herdwick over 2 years ago
It's the role of Government to stand in the marketplace and throw money away, can't blame BT for catching as much of it as possible.

Shame it's money taken off someone that made it in the first place.
Posted by chrysalis over 2 years ago
40mbit is a good sweet spot for FTTC as its a speed that the vast majority will get, when 80mbit is launched its clear we will see a lot more variation and 120mbit will be it seems a point it be pushed to the limit.
Posted by themanstan over 2 years ago
@Creaky

I think you'll find Deddington is one of the more affluent more affluent areas of Oxfordshire. There'll be a lot of custom simply from working types who want to keep up with things at their weekend country home!!!
Posted by andrew (Favicon staff member) over 2 years ago
Deddington as a trial of FOX that is where Openreach wants to be in 30 years, is nothing to do with costs in terms of ROI, i.e. do not assume that FOX is cost effective in similar villages.

It is a trial that gives them more real world experience of fibre voice when its peoples only choice.

Also costs may help in BDUK tenders to explain why £75 per property is not enough to do FOX.
Posted by drteeth over 2 years ago
Some people at not connected to their nearest cabinet, I am connected to my *second* nearest. I max out a 40MB/s connection, but only sync at 45MB/s on the 80 MB trial.
Posted by creakycopperline over 2 years ago
@themanstan So Openreach are doing areas acording to the size of the home owners bank balance? should have known, the class system is alive and well, poor in house, poor in BB.
Posted by herdwick over 2 years ago
bit like Rutland Telecom;s "Fibre to the Mansion" project or the Lyddington FTTC project funded by local deep pockets.

Make money, spend money, get rewards.
Posted by Dixinormous over 2 years ago
'It is a trial that gives them more real world experience of fibre voice when its peoples only choice.'

Ebbsfleet?

Probably some practice with overbuild and forced withdrawal of the copper network before they start doing it en masse.

Have to say this annoys the hell out of me though for other reasons.
Posted by AndrueC over 2 years ago
@creakycopperline:It's called making money. If you ever find yourself responsible for making business decisions I hope you remember that it's best to provision a service in areas where people have money.

It's difficult to sell things to people who don't have money.
Posted by andrew (Favicon staff member) over 2 years ago
Ebbsfleet was a different set-up, as it was greenfield, i.e. no taking out of old copper, and people moving there knew the situation.

Posted by andrew (Favicon staff member) over 2 years ago
@creakycopperline BT and Openreach are not charities, they are free to go where they think they can make money.

Was Virgin Media elitist with its SaltAsh fibre trials
Posted by Somerset over 2 years ago
And Openreach rely on the ISPs who pay them.
Posted by dustofnations over 2 years ago
@creaky - as previous posters have alluded to, these are large capitalist organisations, there is more money to be made in densely populated affluent areas who are keen to try new faster services, and willing to pay a significant premium.

If you want a social enterprise scheme so desperately, why not set up your own with other residents instead of relying on government or PLC to do it for you (ala. B4RN).

I suspect it'd be exponentially harder in practice to achieve success in reality than you imagine.
Posted by creakycopperline over 2 years ago
@ andrew


but isn't the o so virtuos private sector supposed to be able to do things and go to areas that a public owned body can not?
and now they're begging cap in hand for BDUK money? and leaving it to B4RN Rutland and Digital region to do the rest of the work for them, and fyi openreach are'nt charging each homeowner for fibre install. they are investing their own cash.
so that argument falls flat. they're pick and choosing which areas they fibre based on affluent areas. basically class discrimination.
Posted by AndrueC over 2 years ago
@creaky:What 'virtuous' private sector? None of us here are claiming that. The private sector exists to further its own agenda. They are trying to claim BDUK funding because it improves their balance sheet.

No it isn't 'class' discrimination. It's a combination of financial, geographical demographic discrimination.

If you don't have much money, live in an area that's difficult to supply or don't have many neighbours then you'll be bottom of the list.
Posted by AndrueC over 2 years ago
(cont'd) you're the one trying to make this personal and that's where you're going wrong. Private business couldn't give a monkeys about your class or your background. All they care about is whether you and your neighbours have enough cash to cover the costs of provision and ongoing expenses sufficient to generate an acceptable level of profit.

Private companies would supply FTTP to a hobo living in a cardboard box in the bottom of a sewer if the finances made sense.
Posted by Somerset over 2 years ago
'Private companies would supply FTTP to a hobo living in a cardboard box in the bottom of a sewer if the finances made sense.'

Isn't there a company in Bournemouth doing that?
Posted by themanstan over 2 years ago
Class and money in the pocket no longer correlate as they used to. This concept is kept alive artificially by well educated socialists.
I'm an AcademIc, which pigeon holes me in middle class. Fuel tanker drivers, tube and train drivers (working class) all earn far more than me. Plenty of blue collar jobs do too.
So class plays far less of a significant role in earning power than it used to.
Posted by tmcr over 2 years ago
I've looked at DR quite a bit. Littlebigone's checker told me I was 1.3Km from the cabinet, so to expect 14.9/5.6Mbps speeds. Origin's checker gives 20.0/3.5Mbit/s, they show a map and say what cabinet - the one quoted for me is incorrect, there are half a dozen nearer, with the nearest being about 270metres. So, the speed is likely to be there. Now they need to bring the cost down, and explain why they say VOIP does not need BT line rental, yet it costs about the same for their service - I have VOIP, I know what it's costing me. Yes, I do want to see blood oozing out of the stone... ;-)
Posted by Pendlemac over 2 years ago
Rather interesting seeing the comments on here about what Openreach will do or not do.

Thing is, the village my mother is in had it's BT broadband upgraded over the new year and she's now on just over 16Mbps ADSL2+.

Reading here you think that shouldn't have happened as she's in a cumbrian village more or less next to the B4RN area.
Posted by AndrueC over 2 years ago
@Somerset:Lol. Yeah that occurred to me shortly after I'd posted it :)
Posted by Originb over 2 years ago
Hi tmcr,

The way the copper is routed sometimes isn't logical and a cabinet 200m away from you may not always be the correct one.

In Regards to the VOIP, we supply the Data line and then bundle VOIP on top as your phone service. You can just take the Data part of the line from us and not VOIP.

Drop us an email at info@origin-broadband.co.uk if you want us to give you a definitive cabinet check from the build plan.

Kind Regards,
Origin
Posted by andrew (Favicon staff member) over 2 years ago
@Pendlemac if the upgrade was to ADSL2+, then that is one generation behind what others are talking about here, which is VDSL2.

ADSL2+ is a BT Wholesale thing, also rather than Openreach
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