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YouView is born from Project Canvas
Thursday 16 September 2010 12:42:18 by John Hunt

Project Canvas has made a transformation today to become YouView, a name that was rumoured to be the brand of the service back in July. The re-branding today also brings the launch of a consumer-centric website which gives a better idea to viewer what the service can deliver and a new company to operate under, headed up by Richard Halton who previously lead the BBC's Corporate Strategy Team.

For those who haven't been following the developments, YouView née Project Canvas is a joint venture between broadband and TV partners to develop a set top box which can be used to deliver catch-up TV (such as iPlayer/4oD) and on-demand services via a broadband line direct to your television. The project partners include the BBC, ITV, Channel 4, Five, BT, TalkTalk and Arqiva who will either bring content or a platform where the boxes can be deployed. TalkTalk and BT have both offered television services but neither has been able to make a significant imprint on the market with Sky and Virgin Media holding the large majority of customers.

"YouView is a brilliant new subscription-free TV service which combines the best TV with on demand services and internet content. I am delighted to be leading the team who will make it a reality and think it will change the way we watch TV forever."

"We are creating an exciting consumer brand which will stand for a better TV experience for UK homes. Connected TV creates all kinds of creative possibilities, for existing networks as well as local services and new developers of interactive applications. It all adds up to great news for TV audiences. I look forward to working closely with the creative and developer communities to open up exciting possibilities for viewers to discover and enjoy content in new ways."

Richard Halton, (CEO) YouView TV Ltd

The set top boxes from YouView will include a PVR (personal video recorder) which will allow the pausing of live TV and will enable viewers to record any content that is aired. There will be no contract or monthly subscription to use YouView but some pay-for content will also be optionally available. The service is expected to launch in the first half of next year.

Comments

Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
This cack is dead!
Google TV is here this winter in the states early 2011 in Europe and was officially announced at IFA in Germany a week or so ago.

Sony, Philips and other big names will be building integrated sets and boxes...... Canvas is too little too late and a dead duck. Doesnt even do half the stuff other boxes coming will do.
Posted by New_Londoner over 6 years ago
In the words of Mark Twain, "The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated".
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
OMG it gets worse, this turd box is only MPEG-2.......
http://www.youview.com/wp-content/themes/canvas/_site_media/resources/Consumer_Device_Platform_Draft_A.pdf

See page 6...

How very early 1990s of it

Not fully 3D capable over HDMI with only 1.3 either. No card slots. No bluetooth (no controlling it with ya smartphone :( )
OMG its BT Vision mk2 with hd broadcast TV......
WELL IF YOU CALL 1280X720 HD lol
JUNK!
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
Correction can do part 10 MPEG-4 its very early 2000s
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
LOL TaRkADaHl probably millions or billions.
Still its got on demand, that might compete with Sony and Google TV...... Oh no hang on it wont look what else Sony also have integrated into their google TV xmb media bar sets......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Zb47Z5ejog

Hmmm not many serveral years old movies on their service eh :D

Wheres New_Londoner to fly the Canvas flag?

Have fun competing Canvas with your 720p tripe.
Posted by TaRkADaHl over 6 years ago
You even get teles with DLNA and youtube etc built in, even these are more complex/developed than this.

If they actually went for a full 1080p HDMI1.3 box which was reasonably futureproofed I imagine it would do well.

They have just touched the basics, aiming for the lowest common denom... waste of time and money.
Posted by AndrueC over 6 years ago
What are they going to call it next week?
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
@TaRkADaHl its got USB 2.0 though surely that counts [sarcasm]. They dunno what CPU they are gonna use (wont be intel i doubt they are also on the google bandwagon) oh and its going to track your watching habbits also.... Bottom of page 9 in that link i gave ;) Lots to look forward to [more sarcasm]
Posted by chrysalis over 6 years ago
yeah seems a waste of time, cable already has all this on their STB's, and if I want to use broadband delivered VOD then I watch on my pc or laptop.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
I said it was a waste and dead tech from the beginning. Offers nothing new or innovative at all.
Posted by Legolash2o over 6 years ago
I agree with all posts, i'm just gonna get Google TV instead which looks brilliant, anyone agree? :P

This YouView seems like it would be out of date even if it was released in 2005 LMAO!
Posted by John_Gray over 6 years ago
However good or bad the service will be, I would imagine that it will need a rename, because it is too close in sound and appearance to YouTube™.

I've got a great idea - why not call it iView?
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
LOL John_Grey i think they may have future issues with either name hehe
Posted by John_Gray over 6 years ago
<chuckle!>
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
@chrysalis even if you wanted the likes of iplayer and youtube via a tv and not the PC the likes of panasonic and samsung can give you that right now in their newer TVs This really offers nothing new. It even looks like the apps on it will be closed source and upto one company to provide, unlike other solutions coming to market. Basically its just a waste of time and money.
Posted by Legolash2o over 6 years ago
Yeah, they haven't chosen the best of name, not very original LOL!

Some new unrelated news...

"The UK Cost of Delivering 2Mb Broadband for All by 2015 Has DOUBLED"
http://www.ispreview.co.uk/story/2010/09/16/the-uk-cost-of-delivering-2mb-broadband-for-all-by-2015-has-doubled.html
Posted by New_Londoner over 6 years ago
Interesting comments but I wonder how many of SKy's 10m customers even looked at the tech specs of their box before making a purchase decision?

Granted, I'm sure some did, and I suspect some of those frequent this site, do not believe for a minute that they represent more than a tiny minority of the subscriber base.

Cont.
Posted by New_Londoner over 6 years ago

As Sony learned the hard way with Betamax, its all about the content not who has the best spec for most people. So I suggest an open mind until you see what is being offered, and how it is brought to market, before taking a view on its likely success.

I doubt very much whether many purchasers will have a clue about the underlying operating system, processor etc, important though these may be to some posters here.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
quote"Interesting comments but I wonder how many of SKy's 10m customers even looked at the tech specs of their box before making a purchase decision?"

Really you buy a Sky box do you? I imagine those 10M looked at content available and decided they wanted Sky based on that.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
quote"As Sony learned the hard way with Betamax, its all about the content....."

Indeed and google TV and Sony when combined with Sonys pay system Qriocity (i linked to a vid earlier) Obviously have canvas beat in the amount and quality of content terms also.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gtbk2Hqp_o google TV (look near the end how much stuff that has and its not even retail yet or got android apps ported which it will also do)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Zb47Z5ejog Qriocity vid, all THAT is on one TV set.
Posted by Legolash2o over 6 years ago
WOAH! i want it even more now :D
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
The only competition to google tv which is anywhere near as good is this...
http://www.itvt.com/story/7308/news-round-iv-people-lava-philips-sharp-loewe-samsung-blinkbox-google-tv-android-search-c

And thats gonna ensure Canvas has a nice quick death also..... There just too much "good" "content" and development coming for this canvas rubbish to survive. Its dead it was dated to start with and now specs are out it looks even more dated.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
Which ever format survives, it aint gonna be canvas, its gonna be a proper net integrated solution with proper open enviroments for other parties to develop upon and add additional content. Canvas is a locked down and dated system no different to anything we have now. They should just quit now and save a ton of money on even bothering with production.
Posted by Legolash2o over 6 years ago
Yeah canvas should just quit now, it has no chance as Google TV hasn't even been released yet and its already seems amazing.

Anyone know roughly how much it is going to cost? Maybe its time to buy that sony TV in the videos above when its released :P

Built in FreeviewHD and Blu-ray player (with Google TV) would be a dream come true!
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
Even funnier you know Virgin have already complained about Canvas.... Well add 2 more to the list....
http://www.opensourceconsortium.org/content/view/122/1/

and

http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20100910-708158.html

Thats atleast 3 complaints about it now

ITS DOOOOOOMMMED if the complaints dont kill it the better products will LOL

Please no more news about this poop box. Lets have some on the more interesting internet tv devices i say.
Posted by Legolash2o over 6 years ago
The companies involved with "YouView" don't really think out of the box, they think what they have cone is amazing, new, future-proof when infact it was probably out of date when they got the idea :D

@CarpetBurn

Nice links, yeah its pretty much doomed now.
Posted by m0aur over 6 years ago
LIke BT Vision, it simply looks an over complicated and expensive way to access Freeview, and who wants this view anytime you like eyewash when there is iPlayer and 4OD etc on the main channels.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
I may write to ofcom and object also, though not for any financial reason, just if im bored and want to tell them like i did everyone here how cack canvas is ;)
New_Londoner likes it when ofcom gets complaints about things associated with BT and the regulators then give BT and co. a boot to the backside hohoho... Lots to point and laugh at him about in the coming year :D
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
I think its clear now everyone except one person AGAIN thinks Canvas is rubbish (The one person that thinks its still great also disagrees with a village of 80 telling BT where to go also..... Funny that eh?) (I better stop poking fun now its at that person its too simple).
Posted by Legolash2o over 6 years ago
yeah, those of us who think canvas is rubbish and was out of date years ago say aye...

aye!
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
:D Case rested..... Thinkbroadband, please some news about other internet enabled TVs and services in future. Over the past year we have had to read about this hyped nonsense, how about some info on other solutions which are out there and coming soon? That would be nice.
Posted by Somerset over 6 years ago
Latest Sony TVs access iPlayer through a network connection.
Posted by m0aur over 6 years ago
My Freesat Foxsat HDR hooks up to the iPlayer also. Then again, so does one of my fast networked pc's, both of which are hooked up to a 40" 1080p Sony, so I doubt I will be looking for a 'YouView, 'Cos I won't', anytime soon.
Posted by GMAN99 over 6 years ago
Well can I be the first to thank YouView for their offering because of them I'm now aware of Google TV which I didn't know existed... it looks to die for!!! Anyway know how it works is it all Internet only or Internet + freeview or what? what about broadband requirements or is it still too early?
Posted by Legolash2o over 6 years ago
Can't believe everyone has agreed that canvas is crap, apart from one person :D
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
quote"Latest Sony TVs access iPlayer through a network connection."
Yeah Iplayer access through devices from Sony is nothing new Somerset. The PS3 as an example has had that function for what must be well over a year (definately since end summer last year when i got my PS3). CONT.......
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
Samsung newer model TVs (series 6, 7 and 8) also do it and alot more including Yahoo, Flickr, eBay, Twitter and YouTube through samsung tech called either internet@tv or media 2.0 (i forget the final name) it also has widgets you can add. Its nothing new. I almost bought a new samsung LE32C650L for the bedroom a month or so ago, that model costs around 500. For a 32inch screen with so many features its pretty resonably priced IMO, howver im gonna wait now for Lava, Google TV and even Boxee AND MORE, they all make current tech and Canvas look very dated all are hitting early 2011.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
@GMAN99....... Canvas, Google TV and others which i have mentioned All will have DVB-T or DVB-S (sometimes both in an integrated set, Panasonic do that NOW) built in. Conventional broadcast TV you watch still via the DVB side of things for the MOST part and all the ondemand stuff and internet stuff comes via your internet connection through a RJ45 network cable/connection you plug in the back of your TV. The differences are going to be the Hardware and software all these upcoming systems have. So far of those ive mentioned google TV and Lava look to be the best, with the boxee box third.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
Google app development and Lavas is going to be open for a large part for anyone to create free and paid content for. Google tv also has promised you will be able to Android apps on it. If you are not into being an early adopter and want to see for sure who wins the battle you are going to have to hold off for another year or so on a purchase. So far though it doesnt look like Canvas offers anything new or stands a chance compared to others either on hardware or what the consumer can do with the features it has. Canvas will just become another expensive remote to lose ;)
Posted by TheGuv over 6 years ago
GTV is good but it's all about delivery. 

If it is "buffer central" then it will not sit well with the consumer. The Canvas delivery system takes the content to the edge and off the backbone as one of it's methods of guaranteed delivery. Whilst we can all enthuse over HD/3D etc - its nae use if google can't deliver the content "on time."
Posted by TheGuv over 6 years ago
Should make it clear - the innovative stuff google is coming up with is what the industry needs to give it a wake up call. It's great.

Where I have reservations is on whether or not this will work for the average user. With the majority enjoying (or not as the case usually is) throttling and usage caps - the question is how long till they find GTV has chewed up their allowance.

My point is that I can't see the majority paying extra for unlimited/uncapped service which a data heavy service like GTV would need.
Posted by TheGuv over 6 years ago
Final point - Canvas/Youview may not be as innovative it's delivery mechanism makes it cost effective. Given the state of UK broadband - it could be less about "which is best" and more about "which is cheaper" (with regards to consumers and ISPs).
Posted by Legolash2o over 6 years ago
"it could be less about "which is best" and more about "which is cheaper" (with regards to consumers and ISPs)."

You think £200 for a box is cheap??
Posted by GMAN99 over 6 years ago
Well Google TV could be the killer app that justifies the need for High Speed Broadband. What will be a problem is monthly allowance, even if (for example) BT Infinity's monthly allowance goes to up 300Gb per month I can still see that being a problem for some people especially in HD. There's just no way a TV service that you can only watch so much of or have to be careful how much you use it will cut it.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
quote"....With the majority enjoying (or not as the case usually is) throttling and usage caps - the question is how long till they find GTV has chewed up their allowance."

Totally right on that count, but ive been saying for a looooong time internet driven media is coming and broadband and all its caps, throttles and other nonsense in this country is gonna have to change, 2011/2012 could be the start of that change (God lets hope so... OI ofcom grow some ;) )
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
All the capping and throttling that goes on here sooner or later is going to have to stop.... Ive been saying it the past 2 years. Technolgy wont stand still for certain comms companies greed (Im not gonna say names dont want to get into that debate again). Inside 5-10 years i can see all TV being delivered over the internet. They can change the silly caps and throttles now or later but either way they will sooner or later have to change. CONT
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
The internet and the media train that is coming will not stop for entitys that like to sell bandwidth/capacity to others at silly prices, and it wont stop for those that want to buy the bare minimum they sell, then cap and throttle people. We need a regulator that stops the vicious circle. Its already threatening to ruin the future for net based content in this country. STOP the cycle now pleeease.
Posted by New_Londoner over 6 years ago
I guess the key question regarding caps etc is whether the great British public is prepared to pay the true cost of the bandwidth being consumed.

You can't pay < £7 per month and expect unlimited bandwidth, no contention and high speeds.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
Canvas was a nasty little wart from the start, some of those involved in it are those that want to control internet bandwidth along with programme content in this country. Thankfully their system has now been shown to be rubbish and hopefully it will one way or another be killed off.
Posted by New_Londoner over 6 years ago
This is not a regulatory issue, its a question of whether people are prepared to pay for a higher grade service or not.
Posted by Legolash2o over 6 years ago
Most ISPs would just need to add an extra package with no FUP and no limit for £5-10 extra. Besides BT can make it so that video streaming devices, i.e. YouView, BT Vision, GoogleTV or whatever not count towards to download usage.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
Nothing to do with paying for what bandwidth costs, its all about greed and what they want to charge for it.

I agree you cant pay under £10 and expect the worlds fastest and true unlimited connection, but at the same time, in this country it doesnt seem to matter even if you pay £100. In alot of cases there are still stupid limits, throttles, peak and off peak times or other nonsense we have put up with for too long. You have FTTC New_Londoner, you know the prices for that, you cant have more than a few hundred gig peak time even if you are willing to pay £200 a month. It must stop!
Posted by New_Londoner over 6 years ago
Agree with Legolash that a higher cost option with an unlimited or at least very high cap would be good.

Don't agree that you can't get what you want for any price today. Take at look at some of the existing business services such as BTnet which can speeds of up to 1Gb, uncontended access etc.

Might be out of reach for some of us to use at home though, and that illustrates the challenge. How can you get a busines grade service at an affordable price, especially if you want available across the whole of the UK?
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
How much is a BTnet 1Gb uncontended service New_Londoner? The price is not practical for home use. I dont expect the world, but i do expect something for my money. Even if i was willing to pay £300 per month i cant find a FTTC service as an example which will give me more than 500gig Peak Time..... For the future and REAL HD TOTALLY LEGAL content (You could be talking 40(ish)gig for just one film soon) that 500gig is nowhere near enough you could blow through that inside a week without even using your device heavily.
Posted by New_Londoner over 6 years ago
We both agree on the price point, just highlighting that the capability exists but not for home use. Also agree on the need for packages with unlimited or at least very high caps.

Even with compression to a reasonable quality, HD films of around 4G are not exactly uncommon so agree that you need a different model if you are to move to having most HD content delivered over broadband rather than broadcast over the airwaves.

An appropriate content delivery architecture can help, but 20 million households all streaming multiple HD channels at once is a lot of bandwidth!
Posted by Legolash2o over 6 years ago
That's why i think we all need 100Mbps, but the government aint willing to pay £2.6bn a year (10 year project) and yet in the long run they will gain loads of money :/
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
^^^ Agreed and yep it is alot of bandwidth, but it is going to happen, not a case of if anymore but when, so something needs to be done.
I didnt want to do this either, but pricing does need to change or atleast the system of selling it we have in place. If the pricing model to some ISPs continues this could also be the death of smaller ISPs, and i know you like BT, but even you have to agree killing off so many small businesses isnt good :( I wouldnt want to just see a single provider (NO matter who it was) left here totally controlling everything.
Posted by Legolash2o over 6 years ago
We need 100Mbps broadband
No more FUP for "unlimited" packages
No more throttling

I'd pay £50 a month for that package, but before people complain that we don't need 100Mb... It's not about now its about the future, we know what the future will be like in bandwidth requirements but in reality it would probably need more bandwidth.

We need a network that is completely fibre with VOIP, IPv6, etc... Once the fibre is in place it is future proof and can easily be upgraded to 1Gbps.

We should save money and skip past FTTC.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
^^^ For what you would like id pay up to £100 today if it was offered right this minute.

I dont believe the sub £20 a month service in the future is possible (atleast to do everything you may need/want from it).

But £50-£100 IMO should get you a hell of a lot more than what you do get for that type of cash today.
Posted by Legolash2o over 6 years ago
CB, I mean't £50 minimum sorry :P

"But £50-£100 IMO should get you a hell of a lot more than what you do get for that type of cash today."

Agreed

but do you agree that we setup 100Mbps broadband now or do you think we should wait until we need it?
Posted by Legolash2o over 6 years ago
Imagine a time when YouView becomes cheap and one in everyroom, alot of broadband users would be screwed!

There is already a huge huge amount of devices already internet enabled, there is 6 just in one room in my house.
Posted by Legolash2o over 6 years ago
We need a system where the customer has a choice, for example drop down boxes which let you select you broadband packages

i.e.

I want 50Mb broadband with 100Gb usage allowance, another customer may want 30Mb broadband with 40GB usage allowance and its all calculated per Mb and GB (usage).

Have an option where if you dont mind being throttled (pay less). Now that's giving consumers choice.
Posted by Legolash2o over 6 years ago
each list of bandwidth and usage goes in increments of 10 as some customers might just want 10Mbps broadband with 20GB usage.

Basically you get what you pay for at a fair price.


Note: throttling option is during peak times and the assumption that 100Mb broadband is already ready.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
quote"but do you agree that we setup 100Mbps broadband now or do you think we should wait until we need it?"

I think FTTC is a silly stop gap measure and the government should of helped BT or whoever they could had decided to go with to fund a FTTH solution. As is always the case though the UK once again got the poop end of the stick.
Posted by Legolash2o over 6 years ago
Like tax incentives and no fibre tax you mean?

They would also make a fortune selling there old copper too and give that money back to government or be forced to use it on fibre muahaha.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
I dont think the whole copper network needs to be scrapped, infact doing so if you do it properly (IE dig it all up remove it nicely, disconnect every home, etc etc) would probably just add to the cost.
Posted by Legolash2o over 6 years ago
I was on about the copper which could easily be removed, the ones in ducts/poles not the ones buried directly into the concrete.
Posted by SheepFarmer over 6 years ago
Sorry to come to this discussion late, but I think YouView has a very good chance of succeeding. It is backed by the main broadcasters as well as some good ISPs. It will be promoted well because of this.

It doesn't need lots of features and high specs. That's not what most people actually want. Most want something that isn't complicated to use and gives them an easy way of doing iPlayer from the sofa.

Also, there's no subscription. People are willing to pay an upfront cost of something like £200 if they know they won't have to pay anything more.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
^^^ As mentioned you can get a TV with iplayer and loads more already built in.

If you want iplayer easily and video streaming, internet access and loads more from you sofa for around £200 buy a PS3.

It offers nothing new..... Why would i buy a £200 Canvas box for iplayer and youtube when i can do all that from my PS3 which costs around the same but will also stream a ton of video and audio formats, play bluray movies, has digital downloads available, and you can game on it also.

Makes no sense no matter how much they pimp it.
Posted by SheepFarmer over 6 years ago
I think you're missing the point again CB.

Most people don't want a PS3, they don't have media servers in their house ready for streaming, they don't want to play games, they don't want all the stuff the PS3 and the like can do.

A straightforward box that does iPlayer et al, PVR, DVB pause / rewind should be a very popular device - particularly if backed by the BBC, ITV, C4, BT etc. You might not like all those companies, but they are widely seen as trusted brands.

Boxes that have loads of features are only attractive to a small proportion of consumers.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
^^^ You can already buy PVR DVB boxes that do iplayer, and loads more for your £200 budget so no im not missing any point.
Here is an example of such a product....
http://direct.tesco.com/q/R.208-9147.aspx

Maybe you just havent looked around properly at whats available? That does exactly what you have asked for "iPlayer et al, PVR, DVB pause / rewind".
Posted by TaRkADaHl over 6 years ago
Whilst there is a market for this sort of thing. There are products which do everything it does, better and cheaper.

All this has going for itself is the folk whom are backing it.

From a 'simplistic user' view it will work and likely be fine, however anyone with any tech knowledge or looking for long life out of this, it is utterly worthless. It is already 5 years out of date.

IF it was manufacturered and released for £50 and has these specs I would be impressed and understand it, cheap and cheerful.

But this is expensive and far out of date.

I hope it flops.
Posted by SheepFarmer over 6 years ago
You keep coming back with the "loads more", but that's really not what people want. They want good core features. Fetch TV and the like don't cover all the streaming services. That's the whole point of this project - to create a standard way of doing the catch-up tv thing. Boxes like the one you linked to will be able to implement the YouView technology. This isn't about making money out of a selling a box, it is creating a standard platform.

Consumers don't want six different interfaces to use six different streaming services - that's the point I think most people are missing.
Posted by SheepFarmer over 6 years ago
TaRkADaHl : There are products which do everything it does, better and cheaper.

Are there? Where?
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
Make up ya mind sheepfarmer first you dont want a box to do everything then you say "Fetch TV and the like don't cover all the streaming services."
Fetch TV does everything that Canvas will do, i suggest you read the specs for both devices.
Its nothing to do with creating a standard platform, we already have that, its called DVB-T/T2 and Canvas AKA Youview still uses that tech....... Its nothing new, you really need to go read the tech details.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
If you want to buy a Youview box sheepfarmer go ahead, the rest of the tech savy world though will just point and laugh at it.
Posted by donkey_hellfire over 6 years ago
As long as it includes a Freeview HD tuner and HDD recording facility with catch up TV functionality (which I believe it does from a quick check of the specs) I don’t see problem charging £200 at launch. Have you checked out what a Freeview HD PVR box currently costs? Also the box will have to output at least 1080i to display Freeview HD content. There is a mention of the box only supporting 720P and up HDMI modes as all SD content will be upscaled. I am not sure if that is what leads people to believe the box will only support 720P HDMI output?
Posted by donkey_hellfire over 6 years ago
I would also be willing to pay a £400 installation cost for FTTH if it was offered as I believe the high cost of installation is often quoted as one of the main barriers to rollout.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
quote"Have you checked out what a Freeview HD PVR box currently costs?"

Yep i linked to one already.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago

quote"Also the box will have to output at least 1080i to display Freeview HD content."

No it doesnt, BBC HD doesnt technically broadcast at a full 1080i (or 1920x1080 res) it actually broadcasts at a max of 1440x1080. THE EU still class that as 1080i but it isnt. Content is scaled to full 1080i resolution if you watch it on a 1080i compatible set, otherwise its scaled to 720... A 720p TV will normally support 1080i resolutions but nothing higher. Many HD boxes internally scale the signal first to 720p, additional scaling is then done by your TV.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
Thats why some content (panning scenes) look jerky, because its gone from interlaced material to progrssive and back to interlace again. NO current box supports a native horizontal res of 1440, and none are ever likely to. I can link to articles if you want more clarification.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
I believe its something to do with not enough bandwidth or similar being available on freeview still until analogue is fully switched off, since introduction bitrate has also dropped considerably, i myself notice blocking and artifacting in fast paced scenes... Apparantly there was a big uproar about it last year...
http://wotsat.techradar.com/news/bbc-hd-protestors-meet-bbc-bosses-30-04-10
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
Looking at that link it seems they have been rumbled LOL
Posted by SheepFarmer over 6 years ago
CB. Fetch TV doesn't do everything that Canvas will. That's the point you keep missing. It doesn't cover all of the different catchup services, and where it does, it uses a different interface for each one. That doesn't make for a good easy to use service, and is why it gets fairly poor reviews.

I don't want a box that does everything, you're right. I want a box that does the one standard, and does it well.

Lots of boxes are going to end up supporting the YouView system
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
quote"CB. Fetch TV doesn't do everything that Canvas will. That's the point you keep missing. It doesn't cover all of the different catchup services"

Erm are you trolling now or just not reading.... The box i linked you to has very good reviews all over the net, you obviously didnt read the linked review on that tesco site.
Oh and Canvas wont do all the catch up and on demand services either, unless you seriously think Sky Player as just one example will be on it.

You dont seem to know what you want or what tech does, do you work for the beeb, BT or TT?
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
quote"I don't want a box that does everything, you're right. I want a box that does the one standard, and does it well."

Buy a £20 freeview box then LOL Because Canvas IS NOT one STANDARD, its a hybrid DVB-T and Internet system :rolleyes:

Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
quote"Lots of boxes are going to end up supporting the YouView system"

Really....http://www.youview.com/partners/ i see one electronics maker and seller and compared to the likes of samsung and sony they are small fry.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
You go ahead and buy one though even though you dont seem to know what it is..... If i didnt know better id say you were New_Londoner in disguise, you both spout similar nonsense when trying to defend garbage.
Posted by donkey_hellfire over 6 years ago
The link to the box on the Tesco site is a Freeview HD box retailing for £200 and uses the Fetch TV service rather than forthcoming canvas service. So I don’t see what your point is? I believe only BBC HD broadcasts at 1440x1080 on Freeview HD (CH4 & ITV don’t) because they say current TV sets can’t fully resolve the full 1920 x 1080 signal and thus lower the resolution to try and achieve a better over picture with the limited bandwidth available of the current Freeview HD multiplexes (9mbps per channel I think). Sky HD was using around 16/18mbps for HD at launch.
Posted by donkey_hellfire over 6 years ago
I set my SKY+ HD box to output at the native resolution of the broadcast but it still converts SD 576i to 576P. I could set the box to upscale all broadcasts to 720p or 1080i but the builtin scaler isn’t that good. I own a very high end home cinema system so quality counts to me.
Posted by SheepFarmer over 6 years ago
I seem to have really rattled your cage CB. Apologies for that.

Whatever the reviews are for Fetch TV, and they seem quite mixed, it isn't anywhere near as comprehensive as the Canvas platform.

I don't see why people are so against the building of a single IPTV interface and protocol. I can't see why that isn't a good thing.
Posted by SheepFarmer over 6 years ago
And lots of boxes *will* be supporting the YouView system. The partner list doesn't really tell you much there. The main thrust of the project is that it will be a published spec. so lots of manufacturers can include it in their boxes or directly into TVs.

I fully expect there to be boxes costing less than £100 in 2011 that don't bother with the PVR bit.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
quote"The link to the box on the Tesco site is a Freeview HD box retailing for £200 and uses the Fetch TV service rather than forthcoming canvas service. So I don’t see what your point is?"

Im not shocked you dont see it has all the functionality canvas will as i and others have pointed out, canvas offers nothing new. Everything it does you can get a box or boxes to do already.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago

quote"I believe only BBC HD broadcasts at 1440x1080 on Freeview HD (CH4 & ITV don’t)"

Ya wrong and further demonstrate you know nothing about HDTV or specifications. ITV HD is also broadcasted at 1440x1080 (DONT BELIEVE ME? google "itv 1440x1080")
AND THE REASON IT IS...... Thats simple its called ANAMORPHIC... Go read up on wikipedia what that is..... Like i said you and sheep_farmer have no idea about tech.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
quote"they say current TV sets can’t fully resolve the full 1920 x 1080 signal[/quote]

Absolute nonsense, any signal which has a horizontal (WIDTH) resolution over 756 (IE bigger than SD) can be upscaled to 720 or 1080 resolutions depending on what is the max the TV can go to. Your TV would scale it to those resolutions automatically unless you specifically tell it and connected equipment to remain at SD or tell it to only scan to 720 rather than 1080. It has to scan to those resolutions to be able to match refresh rate, framerates etc, again you need to read up on tech.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
quote"and thus lower the resolution to try and achieve a better over picture with the limited bandwidth available of the current Freeview HD multiplexes (9mbps per channel I think). Sky HD was using around 16/18mbps for HD at launch."

Lowering a resolution from its native resolution whatever it may be, to something which is smaller would degrade quality further not improve it. Even if it were doing that 1440x1080 scaled down would go to the next scale down which would be 720p resolutions. Are you now saying thats what the canvas box will ouput?
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
quote"I set my SKY+ HD box to output at the native resolution of the broadcast but it still converts SD 576i to 576P."

Thats a setting on your TV which needs turning off. theres no reason your tv should not do 576i and 576p native signals without altering the input..... Look for settings on your HDTV menus named something like game mode, film mode and similar... turn them all OFF thats why its scaling and to fussy eyes it probably looks a horrid smoothed blury mess scaling SD interlaced to SD progressive.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
quote"And lots of boxes *will* be supporting the YouView system. "

Name one that is officially announced, show me a demo of it. Panasonic wont be building them, philips are going with lava system, sony is google TV....... Canvas is gonna be left with the budget badges like goodmans, alba and other yuck.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
@donkey_hellfire, i say this with sincerity, if you want help calibrating your TV to stop it scaling when its not needed and general advice on resolutions and what scaling would suit them best feel free to PM me, If you have a good cinema system you deserve the best setup possible and if you have equipment that high end, to me it sounds like you may not be getting the best possible from it. I can also provide you with calibration software to play back on it to help you configure things.
Posted by TheGuv over 6 years ago
Regardless of the arguments made over picture quality - most of the usual moaners keep forgetting this is the first stage of stripping out media delivery over the core networks. With BT and Talk Talk looking to deliver efficiency benefits. Putting Youview to one side, the system is supposed to handle content to other devices (PC, laptops, tablets etc).

So down the line there's going to be millions using the service although they may not realise where the media originates from.
Posted by TheGuv over 6 years ago
Whether or not Youview as a product is successful is probably not the deciding factor as to whether the content platform is a success. I think that media providers in the country will use the platform for all aspects and not just the YouView STB service. Website worth looking at is here. May (or may not) fill in some blanks for people.
www.contentconnect.bt.com/
Posted by TGVrecord over 6 years ago
As Canvas is basically Web based, will it be possible to access Youview using a PC as with BBC iPlayer? If so why would I want to pay £200 for a box that only works with Youview?
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
OMG that bt content connect site LOL why didnt they just use a full robot for the voice. My god that has to be the worst voice over on a site ive ever heard.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
I still have one serious question though.... Why has this site over the past what 2 years (must be about that) followed only the development of canvas but no other TV net based product? I have my own suspicions on why but whats other people think? Be nice to hear the official reason but i doubt staff will give one.
Posted by TheGuv over 6 years ago
The answer most likely stems around the fact that no other IPTV product on the market has any intention/ability to change the fundamental infrastructure of the UK broadband network.
Posted by TGVrecord over 6 years ago
Hi CB, looks like they want upset you ;)
Posted by TheGuv over 6 years ago
With the lack of news on other services CB alludes to - it's probably more difficult to write stories on developments if they don't make any other than embedding a client into a STB.

What do they do after ? - I don't think they do much. This is why I don't think we see much in the way of revolutionary development updates... there's a perception that there are none.
Posted by donkey_hellfire over 6 years ago
carpetburn you really do jump to conclusions don’t you. I first became interested in home cinema back in 1992 so I am quite failure with anaphoric widescreen as it was the only way to get 16:9 pictures (widescreen) and maintain the vertical 576 SD resolution on the old SD widescreen sets from a DVD or Ondigital /ITV digital / Freeview SD source. Before UK digital TV arrived CH4 did a few experimental PALplus anamorphic broadcasts but you needed a rare PALplus compatible TV set otherwise it remained SD letterbox. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PALplus
Posted by donkey_hellfire over 6 years ago
I will hold my hand up and admit I did not know that the HD spec supported anamorphic widescreen and I should have spotted the 4:3 aspect ratio of 1440 x 1080. As HD supports proper widescreen 16:9 i.e. 1920 x 1080 why would it need anamorphic support? PAL SD TV has 576 x 720 active lines not 756. Andy Quested head of technology for BBC HD claimed that “TV Panels can't fully resolve the 1920 signal so he said it would be pointless to increase BBC transmissions to this resolution”
Posted by donkey_hellfire over 6 years ago
“During the visit we quite clearly demonstrated that the uncompressed 30MHz grating fed via an HD SDI to HDMI convertor was not fully resolved and the displays demonstrated alias components (as described in the http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2009/03/bbc_hd_nyquist_limit.html blog)."
Posted by donkey_hellfire over 6 years ago
"It is true the 25MHz grating is less defined at 1440 than 1920 but not substantially so. The difference between 1920 and 1440 is far more clearly demonstrated by cameras and reorders that do not record the full horizontal resolution of an image. By the time we get to the last point of conversion (the transmission encoder) the difference is far less clear. Even the Grade 1 32" HD CRT did not fully resolve the 30MHz grating.”
Posted by donkey_hellfire over 6 years ago
All the quotes are taken from the BBC blog on HD video quality. http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2010/06/picture_quality_on_bbc_hd_a_vi.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/hd_picture_quality/
Posted by donkey_hellfire over 6 years ago
I can assure you carpetburn that my Thompson SKY+ HD box that was used at the launch of the SKY HD service has a built in scaler and it only outputs 576P, 720P or 1080I pictures via the HDMI output. It will output 576i as 576P, 720P as 720P and 1080i as 1080i when set to the native resolution setting. In fact doing a quick Google it seems all SKY HD boxes only out 576P via HDMI http://www.avforums.com/forums/sky-hd-sky-3d/1247240-petition-hdmi-576i-sky-hd-box-poor-sd-issue.html
Posted by donkey_hellfire over 6 years ago
I use digital video essentials to calibrate my system but I am considering paying for a professional to do an ISF calibration.
Posted by donkey_hellfire over 6 years ago
Lowering the resolution reduces the number of pixels that have to be encoded thus at low bit rates of say 9.7mbps a resolution of 1920 x 1080 will result in more compression artefacts that using a resolution of 1440 x 1080P. Think of it as more bits per pixel (micro block).
Posted by donkey_hellfire over 6 years ago
There are many examples of source material recorded in higher quality and then down sampled to the broadcast resolution / quality e.g. 35mm film to HD. The critics of the BBC HD channel accuse the BBC of lowering the resolution to allow the HD channel to be broadcast using the Freeview HD bit rate of 9.7mbps. Whereas the BBC maintain that today’s TV panels cannot resolve the full 1920 horizontal resolution so there no point in using the extra bandwidth. See the BBC HD blog links in the previous post.
Posted by donkey_hellfire over 6 years ago
Anyway this has gone way off topic so I will reframe from posting more.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
quote"Andy Quested head of technology for BBC HD claimed that “TV Panels can't fully resolve the 1920 signal so he said it would be pointless to increase BBC transmissions to this resolution”

If he said that he is an idiot certain sky channels broadcast at 1920 x 1080 and have done for some time. He is also lying because the BBC did at one time on freesat do 1920 x 1080 and did also on freeview when HD testing was being done on that platform.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
There is no reason for the bitrate to be lowered either it used to be higher.... EVIDENCE...
http://crave.cnet.co.uk/televisions/head-of-bbc-hd-says-reducing-bit-rate-has-no-impact-on-picture-quality-49304233/
Look at the pic compares, to lesser fussy eyes there may not be much difference, to mine the bitrate reduction does make it a blocky mess.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
As to your Sky progressive - interlace issues, as i explained that can be fixed via the TV setup. Original SD interlaced material which is passed via any box into a progressive SD signal can be reconstructed and interpolated back to the original interlace format via your tv by disabling a few menu options.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
Your sky box is passing the interlaced signal and using its scaler to turn it to progressive, the original signal is still there as its a digital (not anlogue) output and there is no reason your TV can not reconstruct it. Unless its a cheap cack or OLD HD TV without the options to enable and diasable artifical incoming hertz/frame adjustments. Converting progressive back to interlace is simple for any modern set.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
quote"With the lack of news on other services CB alludes to - it's probably more difficult to write stories on developments if they don't make any other than embedding a client into a STB."
I wouldnt mind but there have been all types of net TV development in the past 2 years, this site hasnt mentioned any of it though (it hasnt covered the massive increase in media streamers with net functions, new integrated internet TV announcements, things like google tv, boxee and so much more its a joke). Also probably the reason why some think Canvas is something "new".
Posted by donkey_hellfire over 6 years ago
OMG carpetburn do you actually bother to ready what I have written. No sky HD box can output 576i via the HDMI port period. If you had bothered to follow the link I included in my post you would have seen that some SKY HD box owners are organising a petition asking SKY to enable 576i via the HDMI output. It has nothing to do with my TV what so ever. My TV is the Pioneer 50” KURO KRP-500A which uses the same panel as the highly regarded PDP-LX5090 but with an external tuner / control box. The KRP-500A was regarded as one of the best consumer TV’s on the market back in late 2008.
Posted by donkey_hellfire over 6 years ago
“Even taking into account a couple of niggles, we firmly believe you cannot find another consumer flat screen television that can come close to matching
the image quality delivered by 9G Pioneer Kuro plasmas. No surprise here then: the Pioneer PDP-LX5090 directly replaces its predecessor the PDP-LX508D as the best flat panel HDTV we've tested to date.” http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/Pioneer-PDP-LX5090/Conclusion.htm
Posted by donkey_hellfire over 6 years ago
“Of course, nigh-on £3000 is a lot to spend on a 50in TV in the modern market, and we can understand many of you being drawn to the almost equally impressive PDP-LX5090, which is around £300 cheaper. But if you want the best, cost-no-object, then the KRP-500A is worth every penny.”

http://www.whathifi.com/Review/Pioneer-KRP-500A/
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
quote"OMG carpetburn do you actually bother to ready what I have written. No sky HD box can output 576i via the HDMI port period."

I never said it did, you dont understand scaling. The signal is still interlaced but instructed to scale over HDMI to progressive, by the box. A setting on decent TVs allow you to disable that or reconstruct the signal back to interlace.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
Your TV is 2+ years old, oh and it isnt the best TV anymore, tech has moved on the only thing your TV is probably still best at is Black levels and thats no shocker, plasmas have always been better at black levels. Your set may have the image quality, it doesnt have the latest tech though... 2 entirely different things. Newer sets you can reinterpolate progressive to interlace and vice versa.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
The best TVs nowadays In terms of tech features are 3D capable and backlit LED displays, and retail for £4000-£10000. You can also buy stuff that will scale to beyond HD 1080p resolutions that cost £20000 and higher, your tv is in no way the "best" you can buy.
Posted by donkey_hellfire over 6 years ago
lol whatever carpetburn you know best.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
Indeed i do, and i was willing to help you, instead though you wanted to argue rather than PM me like i asked. Your loss.
Posted by mrnelster over 6 years ago
@CB

You are obviously clever when it comes to tech. It's just a pity that such an educated individual hasn't learned there is more than one way to skin a cat. The newest developments in any tech don't always have to be appreciably better. I have a good friend that rants on as you do about the technical detail and incredible picture quality.
He readily understands though that I cannot see the difference or the need.
He has the humility to understand that his opinion, no matter how well informed, isn't always the right one.
Posted by mrnelster over 6 years ago
Cont.......

Perhaps his education taught him the most important lesson.

To listen? ; )
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