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Five return to Project Canvas
Tuesday 24 August 2010 16:50:01 by John Hunt

After a short break from Project Canvas, Five have returned! The company announced they were leaving Canvas in July after they were put up for sale by parent company RTL. They also were to undertake a review of their digital investment strategy to ensure they were heading in the correct direction.

Five however have now been acquired by Northern & Shell, and one of the first steps the company has taken is to resume their work with Project Canvas. This is good for consumers as it will ensure that the Five content is available when the Canvas boxes start to ship next year, and help to ensure that funding for Canvas can continue from the joint venture partners.

"Project Canvas is set to shape the future of broadcasting and open up new and exciting possibilities for viewers. This is important to the future of Channel Five and having an open internet-connected TV platform fits closely with our plans to bring brilliant new content and interactive services to viewers. We're delighted to renew Channel Five's commitment to supporting Project Canvas following a review of our digital strategy."

Richard Desmond, (Chairman) Northern & Shell

"Channel Five has already made a major contribution to Project Canvas and we're delighted to have them back on board. This is great recognition of how important Canvas is to the future of television."

Richard Halton (Director) Project Canvas

Comments

Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
quote"This is good for consumers as it will ensure that the Five content is available when the Canvas boxes start to ship next year"

Id buy a 20 quid freeview box if i wanted channel five that bad rather than waste hundreds on what a canvas box is likely to cost and then waste my internet bandwidth.
Posted by herdwick over 6 years ago
Mr Desmond will gain an extra outlet for his porn via Canvas.
Posted by New_Londoner over 6 years ago
Whilst not a big fan of Channel 5, I think its good news to see that the channel has rejoined the Canvas project - IMHO the more content providers the better to compete with Sky and Virgin.
Posted by Legolash2o over 6 years ago
sorry to ask a dumb question but i'm not that interested in canvas but... does canvas use the broadband connect or can it use aerial as well?
Posted by Legolash2o over 6 years ago
broadband connection only or can it use aerial as well? ***

fixed some typos.
Posted by New_Londoner over 6 years ago
@Legolash
To quote from the Canvas website (www.projectcanvas.info/), "Project Canvas intends to build, run and promote a platform that solves both problems: providing an upgrade for free-to-air TV, and an open platform of scale that will bring a wide range of internet services to the shared screen."

Posted by Legolash2o over 6 years ago
So yeah it will use the internet, personally i dont think the UK broadband is ready for it, would prob be laggy fr alot of people.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
quote"Whilst not a big fan of Channel 5, I think its good news to see that the channel has rejoined the Canvas project - IMHO the more content providers the better to compete with Sky and Virgin."

How does having another content provider that provides stuff which is already freely available "compete" with Sky, Virgin, Freeview or Freesat?
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
quote"So yeah it will use the internet, personally i dont think the UK broadband is ready for it, would prob be laggy fr alot of people."

From what i understand its not going to offer anything "NEW" persay but will instead just be another box that offers TV channels you can get already and a few internet services built in like BBC services, flikr for your photos, youtube etc.... You may as well just have a 20 quid freeview box and a cheaper media streamer/player which in combo will do all that and probably more (especially if the streaming device can do RSS audio and video)
Posted by New_Londoner over 6 years ago
I understand that it will offer a single platform for on-demand services, as well as far greater capacity for Freeview for streaming HD TV content.

With regards broadband, no doubt it will drive demand for FTTC where available in order to deliver sufficent bandwidth for HD TV streams, especially for larger families with multiple sets / computers.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
quote"I understand that it will offer a single platform for on-demand services, as well as far greater capacity for Freeview for streaming HD TV content."

Thats technically impossible if you mean capacity in the sense i would mean it, capacity (ie amount of channels, quality, the bitrate capable etc) is down to the transmitter not your set top box.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
quote"With regards broadband, no doubt it will drive demand for FTTC where available in order to deliver sufficent bandwidth for HD TV streams, especially for larger families with multiple sets / computers."

No it wont as no current form of HDTV over the net or air needs anywhere near 40Mb speeds. Your typical so called HDTV webcontent stream only needs 2-5Mb (anything over 3Mb is pretty rare) tops and over the air HDTV tops out at around 14Mb (and thats via satelite and only the very odd channel).... 40Mb and FTTC is in no way needed for this box or current web content.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
Even pay services such as streamed movies from lovefilm only need 2Mb as minimum and it doesnt use anything over 4Mb of bandwidth when streaming (i not long ago had a freebie trial)....
http://www.lovefilm.com/on-your-tv/activate/

Posted by New_Londoner over 6 years ago
@CB
Regarding HDTV bandwidth needs, if you multiply the typical 4Mbps needed by 4 or 5 viewers you very quickly push passed the upper limits of ADSL2+, especially if some are multi-tasking on email, Facebook, IM, streamed radio etc as only teenagers can!

Therefore FTTC or similar very quickly becomes a requirement for families.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
so you going to buy 5 canvas boxes and have five subscriptions to ondemand and similar for each box..... I dont think so.
Posted by Legolash2o over 6 years ago
My current speed of 6Mb, i won't be getting it because as soon as one or two of the other people in this house go on the internet my TV would be effected if im watching anything "On Demand"

I can image alot of people complaining about its performance when trying to watch online content using their "canvas" box.

FTTC speeds are required, especially if you have someone who uses the web alot, the user watching on ondamand using canvas and then a gamer. Oh and don't forget about contention ratio!
Posted by Legolash2o over 6 years ago
cont... If everyone on my streets get around 5-6Mbps, 3 Gamers, alot of internet users like facebook,1 downloads alot in the evening instead of middle of night. Now imagine if three houses for a canvas enabled TV.

Somehow i don't think the link from the telephone pole > cabinet > exchange could do all that data because of contention.

Then if you include everyone connected to that cabinet... then we are all doomed (to put it politely).
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
Ondemand stuff like a movie will probably only stream at around 2Mb so anyone just browsing on your 5-6Mb shouldnt affect it at all, gaming unless its to download large updates etc shouldnt affect it either, facebook using wouldnt, the only time it may is the user downloading in the evening. Either way Canvas is going to be a white elephant.
Posted by Legolash2o over 6 years ago
yeah but alot of people are on slow(er) connections and it still adds up pretty quickly.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
FTTC if you intend to use a Canvas box seriously for ondemand content or have several of them like New_londoner used for an arguement becomes pointless anyway as most FTTC services have very low peak time usage figures. So unless you are going to watch your ondemand stuff in the house off multiple boxes after say 10pm its pointless anyway, despite the increased speed you will use up your monthly allowances. Peak time bandwidth from some ISPs for FTTC costs a fortune and BT option 1 only comes with 40gig total monthly use, so the speed in those cases wouldnt get you far.
Posted by Legolash2o over 6 years ago
hmmm, don't know what to reply about that. So it definitely helps if you have an truly "unlimited" usage allowance.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
I said from the start before BT FTTC arrived and i still say now it has arrived complete with caps... Its not the future.
Within 10 years most of the world will be watching Television programmes on their TVs live over an internet based connection, and at around the same time BT and some other companies here will be moaning about costs to update the current FTTC, just as they are moaning right now about cost. Things will never change here until we have a regulator that stands for no nonsense and packs a clout.
Posted by New_Londoner over 6 years ago
@CB
As you've indicated above, a single HD stream needs around 4Mbps, which FTTC can easily support. As you're aware, Infinity Option 2 has a much higher usage cap, so is more suited to use with TV.

You've argued on the one hand that you don't even need FTTC for IPTV, and on the other that it will not be up to the task, which is it as both arguments cannot be right at the same time?
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
^^^ It isnt needed unless you are a person with a very slow ADSL line. And its not up to the task because the monthly caps stop any serious use. Rough figures (not using a calculator so dont scream if not 100% accurate) a 2 hour movie at around 2Mbps (excluding the audio bitrate) will be around 2.5gig. Now lets do some rough maths..... CONT
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
A moment ago you were talking about having upto 5 boxes/viewers in your home. You will hit the 40gig cap after less than 20 movies a month or thats around 1 per week per person based on 5 people (or 5 movies a week total, that doesnt include any other TV through it via your internet connection). Option 2 is currently 100gig, the 300gig rumour is unconfirmed currently. So you can double those figures to be rough. Wooo 2 movies a week and NO OTHER ondemand TV from your Canvas box. Good luck with that and your 5 viewers/boxes on your FTTC. Oh and no more web browsing either as thats more usage.
Posted by New_Londoner over 6 years ago
@CB
So you DO agree that FTTC is in fact capable of supporting IPTV then. You're now suggesting that the issue is down to usage caps, which is a different point to the one you made 3 hours ago about FTTC needing to be changed out by ISPs.

As you know, different ISPs have different fair usage policies, and there is some evidence that changes are being made for FTTC. If this is now the only problem that you can forsee, the surely you'd simply choose an ISP with an appropriate FUP and/or usage cap?
Posted by New_Londoner over 6 years ago

So not really a problem with broadband after all, just the commercial terms of the ISP. Which should be good news for Canvas then! ;-)
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
quote"So you DO agree that FTTC is in fact capable of supporting IPTV then. You're now suggesting that the issue is down to usage caps, which is a different point to the one you made 3 hours ago about FTTC needing to be changed out by ISPs."

Where on this story did i say that FTTC needed to be changed out? Do you mean my reference about in 10 years time them complaining about cost to upgrade it all? Well i guess we know where you stand, happy to have FTTC in 10 years time while the rest of the world races ahead... AGAIN
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
quote"So not really a problem with broadband after all, just the commercial terms of the ISP. Which should be good news for Canvas then! ;-)"

LOL yeah great news you will hit the caps that exist on every FTTC home product.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
Obviosuly you think in 10 years time we wont have TV broadcasts beyond todays current 1080p HD, and 40Mb will be fine for things like 4K resolution which will happen. You obviously also think streaming is going to stay at 2Mb rates for every and your 5 movies a week is more than enough, on your FTTC cap LMAO
Posted by New_Londoner over 6 years ago
@CB
Are we talking about 10 years time or today?

Assuming ten years time, not sure why you're referring to today's usage caps, especially when some ISPs today don't cap anyway, others charge for the bandwidth etc?

If you are referring to ten years time, I assume you'd accept that FTTC speeds will have increased as new encoding techniques etc become available, as happened with ADSL?

Posted by New_Londoner over 6 years ago
Also, the FTTC architecture is well suited to swapping out copper lines for fibre as demand increases, so don't really so that as a limitation anyway.

Good to know that you've come around to IPTV as the future though!
Posted by Legolash2o over 6 years ago
I think FTTC would be needed if you have less than 8Mb, but you will definitely use alot of usage, but they may program it where Canvas won't count towarsd your usage allowance.
Posted by Legolash2o over 6 years ago
http://bt.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/9871/c/348,3049,4014

"BT Vision usage does not count towards broadband bandwidth usage. This means you can watch as much on-demand entertainment as you want without exceeding your broadband usage guidelines. BT Vision also benefits from a separate allocation of bandwidth that means it is not affected by congestion at peak times."

They may do the same thing with canvas.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
quote"@CB
Are we talking about 10 years time or today?"

I originally mentioned current issues then those in 10 years time, you then steered things back to the present and i responded to your questioning. If you can not follow the conversation best not to participate.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
quote"Assuming ten years time, not sure why you're referring to today's usage caps, especially when some ISPs today don't cap anyway, others charge for the bandwidth etc?"

Which ISP can i buy a FTTC home service from with no cap at all? As for charging per bandwidth yep some do so again i say good luck to you and your 5 users/boxes of canvas. Maybe you have hundreds to spend per month on TV and movie bandwidth, me ill pass and stick to £25 and similarly priced LLU
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
quote"They may do the same thing with canvas."

I highly doubt that, too many people involved which will never all agree and even if they did competitors will make a complaint, which personally i think would be upheld for numerous reasons.... Like for one whos going to pay for the bandwidth if you take a FTTC service from a small ISP and use Canvas? BT can ofcourse on their own Vision box do it as that can only be used with BT broadband so its up to them if they want to give bandwidth away to users.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
quote"Good to know that you've come around to IPTV as the future though!"

Ive always been in favour of IPTV, just not canvas. Integrated free solutions are the future (google tv, boxee and similar services) with free ondemand content, not some silly box with the standard channels and a small library of 5 year old films.... You want a hundred quid box, a big bandwidth bill with your precious BT fibre, ya welcome to it LOL
Posted by Legolash2o over 6 years ago
Hopefully BT will dump BT Vision, the adverts make it look crap, but won't canvas be built into every tv eventually? if so then they will have to arrange something with BT.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
Nah canvas wont be built into every TV, panasonic and the ilk are too busy knocking out both integrated freesat and freeview as well as having their own OS for things like youtube and iplayer, they dont need to pay the Canvas muppets license fees to use their samey tech.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
This is the future...
http://www.youtube.com/googledevelopers#p/c/B09682344C2F233B/0/ASZbArr7vdI
(Watch the entire playlist/keynote let it play through)
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
Twitter, youtube, news and basically everything web based pushed straight to your TV in app list form easily like on your phone... added or removed at will, while still being able to watch conventional broadcasts at the same time searching the web for videos, music, downloading etc and more.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
Pulling rss feeds and pushing it all back to other devices around your home including sending it straight to mobile devices, GPU capable of resolution beyond 1080p HD, decent processing power........ Canvas pffffffftt GTFOH with that carp. That there is real IPTV....
Oh and the source.... Its open for you to customise and developers to actually develop rather than being locked down, Hmm integrated google tv or canvas box, oh what should i buy LOL
Posted by Essex over 6 years ago
Maybe one of the real side issues here is. The BBC is 'frightened' to lose or part of the licence fee. It is highly questionable that the licence fee should exist to compete with Plc companies. It is about time the BBC was sold and offered to the City. The and only then should the BBC be able to compete in a fair competitive market.
Posted by Legolash2o over 6 years ago
Canvas or Google TV.... i think Google TV by along shot!
Posted by New_Londoner over 6 years ago
@Essex
Why not go the whole hog and suggest the BBC is sold to Sky, after all they've already tried to buy ITV!

At least the BBC poses decent competition to Sky. With Virgin selling its unique channels, there would be very little left otherwise.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
quote"Canvas or Google TV.... i think Google TV by along shot! "
:D Now if only i could convince certain others on here Canvas is a dead duck before its even started, heck it wont even do anything my ps3 cant. Infact probably less as thats multicodec compatible. Have you also seen the boxee Legolash2o? Thats a nice new product, only recently out and only in the states for now. Some similar fuctions the thing has a section where you can develop your own cross compatible web apps, they already have something like 20 feeds on it right out of the box, whats canvas gonna have LOL
Posted by Legolash2o over 6 years ago
Google TV Specs

"The sleek black Apple TV-sized box will run on a 1.2-GHz Atom processor with 4 GB memory, 802.11n Wi-Fi, dual HDMI-out ports, Dolby 5.1 surround sound and a pair of USB ports. If you hook up a webcam, you can also video-chat at 720p."

That's a nice box, looks sexy :P
http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2010-05/24/logitech-google-tv-box-embarrasses-apple-tv
Posted by Legolash2o over 6 years ago
Anything the UK seem to do, seems to be already outdated i.e. Convas
Posted by Legolash2o over 6 years ago
Canvas*** I already want it :D
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
Also rumoured to be an Nvidia GPU in it :D
While we embrace the future New_londoner can watch BBC repeats, Five soft pron, repeats on dave, and pay per film services LOL
Posted by TheGuv over 6 years ago
What people seem to not acknowledge is that Canvas is a solution to improve content distribution and lower the strain on the network to transport data hundreds of miles around the country.

There are a fair number of ISPs supporting the implantation of Canvas because it will stop their data pipes in the core UK network from creaking.

The 2nd thing to consider is that with the mechanism to move media data streamlined then ISPs will not count the bandwidth usage against a customer since the data is moved on the edge to the customer premises.
Posted by TheGuv over 6 years ago
As a final point - whilst innovation is good I think CB and others need to really consider why Canvas is being supported by ISPs and the likes of google etc is not being championed by them (so far).

IMO It comes down to the efficiency offered by the BT Wholesale Content Connect platform to deliver data from the exchange (or a content node) close to the end user rather than from servers hundreds of miles away.
Posted by jupiler over 6 years ago
Quote from wired.co.uk, 'Google has not yet confirmed if Google TV will be launched in the UK market.'

If/when it does come to us, people will soon get disenchanted when they keep being told the TV programme they try to watch, 'is not available to view in your region'.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
quote"The 2nd thing to consider is that with the mechanism to move media data streamlined then ISPs will not count the bandwidth usage against a customer since the data is moved on the edge to the customer premises."

That remains to be seen and surely would mean if you want canvas you will be limited in your choice of ISP, a bit like you can only have BT Vision services over a BT broadband connection.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
quote"Quote from wired.co.uk, 'Google has not yet confirmed if Google TV will be launched in the UK market.'

If/when it does come to us, people will soon get disenchanted when they keep being told the TV programme they try to watch, 'is not available to view in your region'. "

Thats unlikely to happen, services that happens on currently like Hulu have started a subscription model. The menu content will also probably be customised to whatever region of the world you are in.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
quote"There are a fair number of ISPs supporting the implantation of Canvas because it will stop their data pipes in the core UK network from creaking."

The only ones supporting it already have pipes that creak, thats why they probably want it. Cheaper to make people buy boxes than provide bandwidth where you are not limited to a singular device to watch it on.
Posted by New_Londoner over 6 years ago
Can't reallysee the point of comparing kit and services not currently available in the UK (Google TV, Hulu etc) with kit not yet on the market built to the Canvas spec.

The former may never make it to the UK, the latter is an unknown quantity so many of the comments above are pure speculation.
Posted by New_Londoner over 6 years ago
Good comments from "TheGuv" though about content distribution, interesting to see whether other devices and services adopt this model.
Posted by jupiler over 6 years ago
@New_Londoner 3H ago; You have to view ALL the youtube videos that CB directed us to, especialy the CEO segment at the end. Intel, Sony, Logitech, YouTube, DISH, Best Buy, oh yer an ADOBE(flash)! not so sure about that as the way of the future? but when names like that are behind it, something will happen.

I think the talk of and about 'open source' was the bit that got my attention.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
^^^ Exactly straight away there you have not only an open system but people like sony will put it it on new TVs (probably also integrate it into things like the ps3 and bluray boxes), people like logitech will build PC addons and software, youtube have just a little experience delivering web video and then you have Best Buy happy to flog it. Not only does it do more its got bigger name support.
Posted by jupiler over 6 years ago
^^^with u CB Logitech are already (unknown) for being a major 'remote control' supplier to the industry.
Posted by jupiler over 6 years ago
Sorry, forgot to remind everyone. Logitech= mouse,keyboard,webcam; oh an my favourite, trackerball. I understand they do the RC's under a brand called harmony but don't quote me?
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
^^^ Ill quote you they do do remote controls and darn fine ones, like this.......
http://www.logitech.com/en-gb/remotes/universal-remotes/devices/3898

Mmmmm very nice (though should be for the price lol) But even so shows how good the product could be with them, sony and 2 of the biggest web partners all joining up :)
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
Full range here http://www.logitech.com/en-gb/remotes/universal-remotes, look at that beast whats almost £400 OMG :O
Posted by TheGuv over 6 years ago
Open systems are great - allows for freedom of choice. I just "would not" normally expect that from Sony.

The same problems will exist for the proposed alternate system - getting real time video traffic through the networks to the end user is the big obstacle to success. Without caching a large chunk of content with the likes of Akamai (which can push up cost) then delivery of a reliable working (non buffering) service would be the biggest barrier to consumer acceptance.
Posted by TheGuv over 6 years ago
To follow up on reliable delivery - Currently the alternative large scale IPTV solution in the UK is Sky Player. It is hit and miss on whether it works weeknights between 7-10pm because Sky don't provide enough bandwidth into ISPs (other than it's own) to meet demand (I cancelled it in June).

It would take a lot of co-op from companies (esp Sony who are notorious for non collaboration) to get it right IMO.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 6 years ago
I had a free month trial of sky player when it first arrived, and for me personally it was pretty reliable. I am one of the lucky ones in the UK though that doesnt have to have a BT connection and can get over 17Mb 24/7 via LLU.

As to sony they already work in partnership to an extent with youtube and google, their newest TVs have LAN connectors for DLNA streaming (supports googles desktop media server) and access to various web services like youtube itself :)
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