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40meg Bonded broadband from Be
Tuesday 12 January 2010 15:54:48 by John Hunt

Broadband provider BE have announced the launch of their line bonding service which will be available from early February. The product has been a while in coming to fruition following the announcement of the trial in September 2008 and this is somewhat reflected in the launch. BE will be taking a "softly softly" approach, with the product only available to existing Pro customers, and it won't be a cheap service, reflecting development time that has gone in to this. Pro customers who sign up will be offered a discounted price of around £50-£55 a month with the connection fee expected to be around £85. A second BT phone line will also be required to provide the service. No details have been announced of what full pricing can be expected.

So what does this product actually give you? Well users should see around double their current broadband speeds, so if you get around 20meg now on BE broadband, you should expect about 40meg, and about 5meg for upload speeds. It will also give you the resilience that two lines can provide such that if you get a problem on one phone line, your Internet connection will remain connected. Users that are interested should register as the service will only be available to a small amount of customers to begin with, although the service will be available anywhere within the BE network.

If you don't happen to live in a BE broadband area, you can get bonding services from other ISPs. Timico and AAISP offer bonded solutions using BT lines, with AAISP also able to give a redundant connection using a BT and BE wholesale line.

Comments

Posted by CARPETBURN over 7 years ago
Great, apart from the cost of getting a second BT line if you dont already have one.

Also dont cerberusnetworks use the be/O2 network and already supply bonded ADSL2+?
http://www.cerberusnetworks.co.uk/int_cerberusx2.html
Posted by cyberdoyle over 7 years ago
Ah. The BET solution again. Well, I don't see why people should have to pay for two phone lines in this day and age. But if they choose to at least it will get people used to paying for slightly better broadband and not always going for the cheapest. With the cheaper offers the contention is worse and the experience is worse. If BE can make the obsolete copper cough out a bit more speed it is another stopgap in our wait for NGA and fibre. At least BE are trying, but it doesn't make it the right thing to do.
Posted by kamelion over 7 years ago
There you go again Doyle. The fact is we aren't going to get fibre (except to the cabinet), does this mean people should just stick with what they have? If more people go for bonded lines it will show companies and the powers that be that there is a market for faster broadband.

I am fairly satisfied with my 20/2 meg connection - not bad for obsolete copper
Posted by premier over 7 years ago
It wouldn't be so bad if you could get broadband-only phone lines. As it is you end up paying an inflated line-rental in order to get "free" phone calls.
Posted by kijoma over 7 years ago
wow it has taken them a long enough time to trial it. considering ADSL2 supports native bonding in its spec.. I am guessing they were waiting for affordable dual port routers?.
Posted by offcs over 7 years ago
I would have thought that this is intended for the small business market, who already have more than one phone line for their telephone system. I have customers who are using Mac Mini Servers in their business premises, and who need faster upload speeds than ADSL can provide. I can see this being really popular.
Posted by mishminx over 7 years ago
BET is surely aimed at those with pish poor connections. The pricing on this product would indicate that it is aimed at those with reasonable line speeds.
Posted by Dawn_Falcon over 7 years ago
Ssh man, you're getting logic into their hatred of consumer choice.
Posted by bosie over 7 years ago
Super but I want a modem not a router otherwise I'd jump in.
Posted by Dawn_Falcon over 7 years ago
You need a router to manage the two lines bosie.
Posted by wirelesspacman over 7 years ago
Dawn_Falcon is correct. Another point to keep in mind with bonding is that it tends to bond "equal" lines. Thus if one works at 20 Mbps and the other at 10 Mbps then the "bond" will be 2 * 10 Mbps.

This can be an issue if one of the lines gets worse over time, since it can bring the bonded speed down dramatically.
Posted by briangregoryuk over 7 years ago
Thus if one works at 20 Mbps and the other at 10 Mbps then the "bond" will be 2 * 10 Mbps.

Not true for this bonded service, wait and see
Posted by nmg196 over 7 years ago
@cyberdoyle If we want to pay for a second line to get twice the speed and a redundant connection - that's our perogative. You make it sound there's something negative about this becoming available?! I'd far rather have two 20Mb lines than one 40Mb line - and I pay a huge premium to get that (£120 per month at the moment). Advantages of course, are resiliancy bonding is mainly done for resiliancy rather than just speed. You can get bonded solutions like this from Fluidata and Cerberus Networks.
Posted by nmg196 over 7 years ago
@wirelesspacman No that's not true. You simply add the speeds together. The lines don't even need to be the same type. It's very common to bond an SDSL line with an ADSL2 line to force your connection to run over different hardware at the exchange (for resiliancy). You get the 2Mb of the SDSL added to whatever syncs you attain on the ADSL.
Posted by wirelesspacman over 7 years ago
I remain to be convinced for "true" bonding.

Having said that, my own direct experience has only been over standard adsl/sdsl bonding and not adsl2+.

Very happy to be proved wrong though! :-)
Posted by kamelion over 7 years ago
The technology has been around for years pac . Its how t1 and t3 lines work
Posted by wirelesspacman over 7 years ago
Got a link or two you can share?
Posted by otester over 7 years ago
So is there a place to find dual/multi-port ADSL2+ routers?

(I know they are expensive).
Posted by CARPETBURN over 7 years ago
You dont need a special router to run bonded, ignore DF.
http://www.automatedhome.co.uk/Internet/ADSL-Bonding-How-To-and-Review.html
Posted by wirelesspacman over 7 years ago
Beg to differ, that article basically shows you how to "build" a special router!

And, as I said above, such devices suffer from "lowest speed line wins" in the bonding.

Still waiting for kamelion to provide a link to back up his comment (nudge!) :-)
Posted by Dawn_Falcon over 7 years ago
"Each connection is plugged into a Sangoma S518 PCI ADSL modem (one for each connection), costing £112 each.", plus he was getting blatently sub-par performance.

Or you can use a ~£120 router. Hmm....

No, I'm going with Carpetburn being wrong.
Posted by otester over 7 years ago
@CB

I talked to an ISP a while ago and he saids there is cheap bonding and real network layer bonding (ISP end all the way to yours) which involves a router which costs hundreds and gives you one IP so you could actually do 40Mbps (or w/e the full speed) on a download.

So far I've found a ZyXEL which has 2 ports and claims to bond for ~£350.
Posted by otester over 7 years ago
In addition the ISP said that it would cost ~£150 a month.
Posted by otester over 7 years ago
Also CB, Entanet is bloody terrible for speed.

I'd like to see 3xXILO up-to 8Mb connections.
Posted by otester over 7 years ago
Ok here's why bonding over BT no longer works properly (LLU based will still)...

"The BT Wholesale IPStream Network does not offer a guarantee that Bonded DSL or DSL lines employing Multi-link Point to Point Protocol (MLPPP) can be supported. Whilst it may be technically possible for a Customer (ISP) to deliver Bonded DSL or MLPPP to an End User, as its not a supported product feature we have no way of guaranteeing support for Customers (ISPs) providing Bonded DSL or MLPPP."
Posted by otester over 7 years ago
^This is due to implementation of 21CN.


(Also sorry for mass comments, if an admin/mod could merge them that would be great).
Posted by CARPETBURN over 7 years ago
quote""Each connection is plugged into a Sangoma S518 PCI ADSL modem (one for each connection), costing £112 each.", plus he was getting blatently sub-par performance.

Or you can use a ~£120 router. Hmm....

No, I'm going with Carpetburn being wrong. "

Obviously didnt look at the date or look up what similar gear costs nearly 4 years on did you <YAWN>........ Troll
Posted by CARPETBURN over 7 years ago
Posted by otester...
quote"In addition the ISP said that it would cost ~£150 a month."

quote"Also CB, Entanet is bloody terrible for speed.

I'd like to see 3xXILO up-to 8Mb connections"

The more connections you have the more it will cost obviously, they aint a supermarket with buy one get one free offers.

The link wasnt to recommend them as an ISP....
Also dunno why you are going on about BT bonding on 21CN/ADSL2+ not working, i thought this waas about be who are LLU and dont suffer from the issues in your other posts.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 7 years ago
The statement stands you wont need any "special" router like wirelesspacman or Dawn Flacon think.
Multi-link Point to Point works fine and has done for years just as kamelion pointed out. The whole lowest speed thing shouldlnt be an issues, this isnt BT with silly DLM bouncing your line speeds all over the place and no support.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 7 years ago
Also if you really want a custom managable router, cerburus who i and nmg196 mentioned can provide that equipment, i also imagine BE will once its out of trial stage, considering they supply suitable equipment with their other services and cerburus are basically BE/O2 suppliers.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 7 years ago
UPDATE: Looks like Be supply the needed equipment, obviously some didnt click on the prior story....
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/3707-be-trial-40mbps-adsl2-bonding.html

QUOTE
"Be will provide a suitable router and 2 additional telephone lines for the service."
Posted by 2doorsbob over 7 years ago
For the cost 2 or 3 lines i'd expect 007 himself to come and install it
Posted by CARPETBURN over 7 years ago
quote"For the cost 2 or 3 lines i'd expect 007 himself to come and install it"

Huh? for a price of around £50-£55 a month! Seems resonable to me, of course BT will charge a fortune to screw a second socket to your wall and milk you for line rental even though you may not have any BT services on the line but cant blame BE for that.
Posted by Dawn_Falcon over 7 years ago
And you can't blame BT either. If they didn't have to fund piles of BT-specific restrictions on them doing business, they might be able to provide products people want rather than what they're *allowed* to.

And Carpetburn, did I say "special" router? No, I didn't. You'll need one able to run the appropriate software and with multiple input ports ofc...
Posted by CARPETBURN over 7 years ago
Who says i was blaming BT?? However they do charge a fortune to install a new line and socket and always have, even before the days of broadband. You will also still have to pay the same line rental cost even if you take no service from them. Im not bashing them for that but it does seem strange, after all a wired up Virgin house as an example where you dont sub to any services from virgin (IE perhaps canceled the service) you dont carry on paying them. About time the whole having to have a number assigned by BT before you can get broadband from others stopped.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 7 years ago
BT are allowed to provide bonded solutons are they not?? It appears they dont want to support it properly though from otester multi posts.
Posted by wirelesspacman over 7 years ago
"However they do charge a fortune to install a new line and socket"

Huh?
Posted by wirelesspacman over 7 years ago
"The whole lowest speed thing shouldlnt be an issue"

I have had "true" bonding (ie not load sharing) running for a number of years in a couple of locations and I can assure you that it is an issue.

Individual line capabilities can and do change over time, and of course faults etc do happen.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 7 years ago
This is a ADSL2+ service wirelesspacman, there wouldnt be much point subbing to this if you didnt have decent lines capable of decent speed. If you dont live far from an exchange and have a decent line, chances are another line will perform very similar. CONT
Posted by CARPETBURN over 7 years ago
I as an example have a line with 18Mb, others with ADSL2+ in my street and area get similar speed....... Even if i got a second line and it was slower say 15Mb and that reduced my current line down to 15Mb that would still be 2x15Mb connections, so id get 30Mb..... Sure a secondary line may not perform exactly the same, but its going to be similar, assuming you aint in the middle of nowhere. Or as i said The whole lowest speed thing shouldnt be an issue.
Posted by Dawn_Falcon over 7 years ago
Carpet - So now you're calling for leeching off BT's infrastructure without paying them ANYTHING. Below cost ain't enough for the freeloaders!

BT and Virgin are the same - if you cancel their service, they cut you off.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 7 years ago
Please provide evidence of this "without paying them ANYTHING. Below cost ain't enough for the freeloaders!"
Posted by Dawn_Falcon over 7 years ago
"You will also still have to pay the same line rental cost even if you take no service from them."

In this very thread. Wrong AGAIN.
Posted by TGVrecord over 7 years ago
It would appear that Be will be supplying the Nexuslink 5631 for bonded broadband.

Here is a link for those who are interested http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/beunlimited/t/3780053-re-be-launch-line-bonding.html
Posted by CARPETBURN over 7 years ago
quote""You will also still have to pay the same line rental cost even if you take no service from them."

In this very thread. Wrong AGAIN."

Really so i can have a 2nd phone line installed by BT, pay just for the installation, sub to NO services from BT and only use it for my bonded broadband from Be, without having to pay BT line rental, can i?

I didnt know that, could you point me to information to clarify, as if thats true ill take this service ASAP.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 7 years ago
quote"It would appear that Be will be supplying the Nexuslink 5631 for bonded broadband.

Here is a link for those who are interested http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/beunlimited/t/3780053-re-be-launch-line-bonding.html"

Indeed it appears they do supply a more than suitable router, i noticed that from the http://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/3707-be-trial-40mbps-adsl2-bonding.html link a few posts ago, must say im interested in this. Especially if for a second line i dont have to pay BT line rental as Dawn has hinted at :)
Posted by wirelesspacman over 7 years ago
"Or as i said The whole lowest speed thing shouldnt be an issue."

Sorry, I wasn't being specific enough. My issue with such bonding is not what happens the day you connect it all up, but what happens over time. If both/all of the lines in the bonded group continue to work well, then all is fine. If, however, one of them degrades for any reason then it pulls the whole bonded group down to n * the lowest speed line. This may, or may not, be apparent to the end user. It is quite possible, therefore, that the bonded group could end up worse than the speed available from just one of the lines.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 7 years ago
^^^ Agree that is possible, but unlikely, ive had LLU ADSL2+ for over 2 years speed has always been consistant. Obviously this isnt a service for those that cant already get decent speed from LLU ADSL2+, would be a bit of a waste if the area you live can only give you 3Mb per line, though i spose someone would be happy to still pay.
Posted by TGVrecord over 7 years ago
I suspect it could be of interest to small busineses or to people who work from home even if they get slow speeds.
Posted by barney10001 over 7 years ago
I've had bonded adsl (up to 5 lines) of various flavours, adsl1, adsl2 (annex A & M), mixed together over time for nearly 7 years. Now bonding BT and BE wholsale adsl provided lines. Its nothing new. Look at aaisp.net. Uplink bonding is via a multitude of available options. Firebricks, Linux, cisco or even Routerboards.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 7 years ago
Before cerberus and be, which other suppliers provided ADSl2+ bonded?
Posted by barney10001 over 7 years ago
Carpetburn: I've had bonded ADSL2+ (Annex A) since June/July 2008. Annex M since Sept 2009 if that helps your search for finding other ADSL2+ bonded suppliers.
wirelessspaceman: A&A's (AAISP) bonding implementation does not default to the lowest line speed x qty of lines.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 7 years ago
I cant find any other suppliers that provide ADSL2+ bonded, thats why i asked you.
Posted by Dawn_Falcon over 7 years ago
No, Carpet, I did not hint at any such. Hint - when I quote YOU, then as a separate statement say you're wrong (in that you claimed you hadn't called for freeloading off BT)... It's *not* a single run-on sentence.

(Oh except you can, IF you're a school and it's part of a bundle...)
Posted by CARPETBURN over 7 years ago
^^^ If any of that mess made any sense id comment.
Posted by wirelesspacman over 7 years ago
@Carpetburn - It was my own experience that caused me to make the comment.

@Barney - You might well be right, it is a couple of years since I used aaisp (with Firebrick) but it was certainly the case then.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 7 years ago
quote"@Carpetburn - It was my own experience that caused me to make the comment."

I wasnt denying it, i agreed with you it is possible for speed to degrade :) If you have a decent line though capable of around the full 24Mb ADSL speed and you add another line its likely to be similar in performance, its not going to be massively slower, if it were theres something seriously wrong.
Posted by thexyone over 7 years ago
I only get 6 to 7 meg from my BE broadband, because my distant from the exchange and those lovely flappy overhead copper cables. So I've downgraded from the 24 Meg service. I will not be bothered about trying to double my speed in that expensive way.
Posted by partymarty over 7 years ago
@wirelesspacman

We have 8 bonded ADSL2+ lines here, 10Mb each way although the download speed could be increased substantially if we needed it. Recently had one line fail at the exchange...no connection problems, no loss of bandwidth. Top stuff from Easynet.
Posted by wirelesspacman over 7 years ago
@partymarty

Many thanks for the note. Sounds like you are using the bonding for upstream mainly.

Complete line failures are (from memory) something that the bonding takes in its stride.

@carpetburn - accepted!! :-)
Posted by CARPETBURN over 7 years ago
@wirelesspacman, glad we could thrash that out and both agree and both made valid contributions :-)
Posted by wirelesspacman over 7 years ago
democracy at work :-)
Posted by chrysalis over 7 years ago
This product isnt a way to judge if there is demand for higher priced higher speed products because this fails in the same way as all BT line based products do in that there is no garuantuee of synch speed and the variable is too high. In theory someone could be paying £80 a month for bonded 0.5mbit.
Posted by joseph9090 over 7 years ago
If anyone is looking for a dual ADSL router, complete with built in modems, then have a look at the Virtual Access GW7000.

http://www.virtualaccess.com/index.php/products/gw7000-dual-adsl

It's akin to the Cisco 1841 with dual ADSL WICs but I understand it's a lot cheaper.

Posted by jakew009 over 7 years ago
I guess I don't get what the problem is with bonding - it is not expensive or difficult!?

Two lines with Andrews and Arnold, two simple DSL router / modems (any you like, as long as you can disable NAT), plug them both into a switch and plug the computers in as well.

Ask Andrews & Arnold for a static IP block (you can have as many as you need for free), say a /27 and then have A&A load balance the packets across both lines for you, and let the routers at your end sent it to the appropriate computers.

I get 9.5 meg down with two lines getting a profile of 5.5meg and 4.5 meg respectively.
Posted by jakew009 over 7 years ago

Upstream is a little more complicated but it can be doen with a PFSense box to split the packets- I get almost exactly double upload, 840 instead of 444.

It costs about 30 quid a month.

Posted by jakew009 over 7 years ago
Oh I forgot to add the A&A routers automatically deal with failover, takes about 5 seconds normally if one line drops out and about the same to seamlessly come back in. If you loadbalance upload as well, you have to check that the gateway is up youself obviously.
Posted by wirelesspacman over 7 years ago
what you have been talking about above though is "load balancing" rather than "bonding".
Posted by jakew009 over 7 years ago
So what is the benefit of bonding as you call it (MLPPP? ISDN.....) rather than load balancing?

Its far more flexible and far more reliable than MLPPP. You get your combined downlaod speed on a single file transfer.
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