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BT forced to move 20 street-side cabinets in Muswell Hill
Thursday 03 December 2009 15:08:10 by John Hunt

BT has been forced to move 20 of the new street-side cabinets used to provide the fibre-to-the-cabinet based broadband service in Muswell Hill. Local residents in a conservation area complained about the location and size of the boxes and Haringey Council has stated that 20 of these boxes broke planning laws and will need to be moved. All the boxes installed in the area are also to be painted black so they blend better with existing street furniture.

"As Muswell Hill is a pilot area, and Next Generation Access is a new technology we are still learning lessons from the deployment of these cabinets, and are constantly evolving their design and specification, in co-operation with local authorities.

"However, it is important to note that thanks to the deployment of this technology, residents of Muswell Hill will be amongst the first in the country to benefit from access to super-fast fibre broadband services."

BT Statement

A new location has been found for three quarters of the cabinets which are to be moved. It is usually mobile phone masts that throw up complaints from residents not wanting them to be sited near their home, but presumably those who complained are happy to receive a poorer broadband service due to the cabinets being placed less optimally.

Comments

Posted by Sandgrounder over 7 years ago
They can move them to my road.
Posted by zyborg47 over 7 years ago
If the snobs don't want them, we will allow Bt6 to bring them here,
Typical NIMBYs
Posted by timmay over 7 years ago
"...super-fast fibre broadband services..." It's not fibre though is it!? No more fibre than Virgin Media's Hybrid fibre-coaxial network and with Virgin Media already available in Muswell Hill there is already a super-fast broadband service available so it's no surprise that people object to another.
Posted by AndrueC over 7 years ago
Tbh I'm impressed that they care enough about their area to complain. I'm even more impressed that their council took it seriously and worked on their behalf.

Better than my council who sort of listen then ignore you and go ahead anyway.
Posted by michaell over 7 years ago
"presumably those who complained are happy to receive a poorer broadband service"

Presumably the author of this post actually thinks that everyone in the country is so desperate for 40 meg broadband that they are happy for providers to ignore planning regulations to achieve it?

As far as I'm aware, that area already gets 11 meg (actual) speeds with ADSL2, and "up to" 20 meg broadband from Virgin, so I would presume that many would prefer to have what they already have rather than screwing up the area with ugly boxes.
Posted by bosie over 7 years ago
Ugliness is everywhere; buildings, poles and bollards, street lights, railings, bus shelters, modern phones boxes ...everywhere. I don't know what these boxes looked like but i might understand the objection. We should be more proud of design and not focus solely on the function.
Posted by djfunkdup over 7 years ago
it does make you lol....this is tyipical of this country....moan moan moan bla bla bla wee dont have fast enough broadband....then when new systems are put into place there are complaints as regards to the imposing street cabs.......some people are never happy,
Posted by JNeuhoff over 7 years ago
Good decision. Get it all replaced with proper FTTP, no bulky street cabinets needed anywhere!
Posted by djfunkdup over 7 years ago
re:jneuhoff

u need to waken up m8 and join the reality of the real world....FTTP is not going to happen on a wider scale of things...just be happy that FTTC is starting to get implomented on a wider scale.....
Posted by woltonpd over 7 years ago
Having a Virgin Cabinet outside my house and discovering how versatile it is, with people congregating around it, sitting on it in the early hours and even decorating it with thier own designs. A real pleasure, something that should be appreciated by all.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 7 years ago
A perfect example of where paying the potential broadband tax is stupid as obviously not everyone wants fibre.

I also thought part of the idea was not to have overlapping areas of fibre based services, if this area already has Virgin services why were BT cabinets installed (another attempt to poach customers??)
Posted by Dawn_Falcon over 7 years ago
"I also thought part of the idea was not to have overlapping areas of fibre based services"

Cite?
Posted by mishminx over 7 years ago
They don't look that bad to me, a little tall perhaps...

http://www.currybet.net/cbet_blog/2009/09/muswell_hill_fibre_trial.php
Posted by GMAN99 over 7 years ago
Why wouldn't they want to poach customers? Its called competition. AFAIK there is no idea of non overlapping fibre areas. Your trying to tell me that BT won't go where Virgin already are? How does that make any sense.
Posted by Somerset over 7 years ago
CB - Why should people be limited to one ISP?
Posted by Pigmaster over 7 years ago
Just like a small village near where I live. Orange/Vodaphone want to put a 3G mast into the Village but had to stop due to the usual processes, so they pulled out. That was 3 years ago now there is a campaign to get 3G into the area by the very same people because they can not get Mobile Broadband.
You have to laugh
Posted by andrew (Favicon staff member) over 7 years ago
FTTP would mean new wiring to each property, possibly road works to repair collapsed ducting, especially as roots from hedges, shrubs may have invaded ducting stopping the blowing of fibre.

One option could be to installer smaller cabinets with support for a more limited number of lines
Posted by TonyHoyle over 7 years ago
So.. they're quite happy to have virgin cabs, which are (a) more numerous (you need 2/3 per street), and (b) in many cases larger and more intrusive than an FTTC cab. Presumably because it gives them their fix of I'm an X Factor B List Celebrity every week. But not FTTC, because they can't see any immediate advantage.

It's not like it's a leafy village.. it's a suburb of London. Traffic does way more damage than a couple of boxes.
Posted by TonyHoyle over 7 years ago
For a reasonable size comparison try http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2610/4036999821_84cd2c248d.jpg - it's not Muswell Hill but you have two cabs along the same wall so can see the difference.
Posted by andrew (Favicon staff member) over 7 years ago
On that picture people need to bear in mind the perspective issue, that image almost makes the cabinet look bigger on purpose.

http://img258.imageshack.us/i/img4921y.jpg/
http://img523.imageshack.us/i/img4926a.jpg/
http://e.gg/7974182
Posted by Dawn_Falcon over 7 years ago
andrew - Smaller cabs are not a realistic option. Not all of the equipment scales down well, so you're looking at much the same cost for a small number of homes *and* digging up the roads to lay new lines, in many cases.
Posted by bosie over 7 years ago
Where I live in Covent Garden, the streets have been completely dug up one by one for the past year or so allowing Thames Water to replace old pipes. There was also another project going on to renovate Long Acre so the roads were dug up again. Still no fibre was laid, not even Virgin took the opportunity. It's a shame we can't organise things a bit better.
Posted by Capn over 7 years ago
Living in a conservation area where all our cabinets are underground with the grey Post office covers worries me. However most people in our street aren't moaning pensioners and should be able to persuade the council otherwise when BT get round to the job.
Posted by btbert over 7 years ago
"
Living in a conservation area where all our cabinets are underground "

please tell me more as in over 20yrs i have never seen a underground cab !

your cab is i would say some streets away and you have just not seen it.

your "grey post office covers" are just foot way boxes ie jf4 ect
Posted by CARPETBURN over 7 years ago
QUOTE""I also thought part of the idea was not to have overlapping areas of fibre based services"

Cite?"

Disscussed numerous times in the forums, an example from a staff member....

http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/general/t/3652289-re-digital-britain-another-hidden-tax.html

Probably best to read the whole thread and search similar ones for similar reports.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 7 years ago
quote"Why wouldn't they want to poach customers? Its called competition. AFAIK there is no idea of non overlapping fibre areas. Your trying to tell me that BT won't go where Virgin already are? How does that make any sense."

It doesnt make sense, i even insisted there would be overlap and competition, numerous times in the forums though people said that is not the case. A single example ive linked to above, if you search out threads about FTTC and the 50p tax you will find other posts saying there wont be more several fibre services in a area.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 7 years ago
I said here more than one service would happen...
http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/general/t/3652139-re-digital-britain-another-hidden-tax.html
The reply here...
http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/general/t/3652289-re-digital-britain-another-hidden-tax.html
was it would not. So no change, haves will again have choice, have nots again will not.
Posted by Somerset over 7 years ago
So how about VM offering a wholesale service to give a choice of ISP?
Posted by Dawn_Falcon over 7 years ago
Under your plan, certainly Carpet since you're opposed to expanding the networks...

And no, BT have always made it plain that they were using a market-based approach for FTTH/C
Posted by CARPETBURN over 7 years ago
quote"So how about VM offering a wholesale service to give a choice of ISP?"

That is one possibility though i dont see how that comes into the arguement about cabinets in an area.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 7 years ago
quote"Under your plan, certainly Carpet since you're opposed to expanding the networks..."

Have never said that, expansion to areas of a service where they dont want it though is pointless

quote"And no, BT have always made it plain that they were using a market-based approach for FTTH/C"

Exactly as i suspected then.
Posted by Somerset over 7 years ago
'market-based approach' means where the ISPs think their customers will pay for it.
Posted by c_j_ over 7 years ago
"So how about VM offering a wholesale service to give a choice of ISP? "

You mean like H2O Networks Fibrecity vision/dream/illusion in Bournemouth? You probably don't, do you :)

Conceptually it would actually make sense, the last mile connectivity is a natural monopoly, and indeed who needs N duplicated competing sets of kit and backhaul in half our exchanges, all chasing each other to provide the cheapest service, while other exchanges have no choice at all.

How did we get here?
Posted by robthemod over 7 years ago
Posh W@nkers. Send the cabinets to my street please. Being in the Midlands, I suppose we'll have to wait bleedin' ages!
Posted by stoneys-nutz over 7 years ago
HaringAy council are a bunch of *****, they should spend more time looking after the kids in their area who need help, not a bunch of posh gits. Google "haringey cockups" to see what i mean. Bunch of fecking tossers.
Aaaah, thats better.
Posted by themanstan over 7 years ago
quote"And no, BT have always made it plain that they were using a market-based approach for FTTH/C"

"Exactly as i suspected then."

Eek... a business using a market-based approach that will result in break-even or maybe even a profit, how nasty of them...

Lets turn BT into a charity... that way the business plans people wish from BT can be achieved and there are no share holders to keep happy...
Your bill can now be renamed a donation and gift aid will return the VAT from the Treasury to BT for investment. Our digital britain problems are solved!
Posted by Dawn_Falcon over 7 years ago
A market-based approach was precisely how BT started the ADSL rollout as well, I'd note.
Posted by brush-head over 7 years ago
Maybe there are more important things in life, like maybe getting one (a life that is)...
Posted by CARPETBURN over 7 years ago
quote"quote"And no, BT have always made it plain that they were using a market-based approach for FTTH/C"

"Exactly as i suspected then."

Eek... a business using a market-based approach that will result in break-even or maybe even a profit, how nasty of them..."

Wow talk about leaping to the defence and missing the point
Posted by themanstan over 7 years ago
CB are we talking about BT abusing their market position? Well, I would if you'd proposed installing fibre nationally in the 1980s, providing first class infrastructure and then getting blown out by the government (Lab/Con doesn't matter, they're all cretins when it comes to long term infrastructure investment).
Posted by CARPETBURN over 7 years ago
^^^ No idea what you are talking about, i think you should re-read the thread and what i was discussing with others. It was previously suggested areas would not overlap, this area i think already has Virgin 50Mb services so why BT cabinets were there in the first place if the idea was areas wont overlap is anyones guess
Posted by themanstan over 7 years ago
Ah... the non-competition model that has been mooted, with localised monopolies. Somewhat unfair, as that would mean that VM is able to leverage its entirely low cost maximum population density model. Leaving the areas where they didn't cable up (when they where NTL and Telewest which ran out of money) and the low population density areas which cost more. Um... will BT be subsidised for operating that model... er, nope... so market forces come in, so it's compete in the high population density low cost areas for best return on investment.
Posted by otester over 7 years ago
I'd take 40/10 over 50/1.5 any day.

Especially as I know I can get a service that doesn't have DPI/an ISP that hunts pirates.

By the sounds of CB (market-based stuff), little villages are destined to never get this, so my parents will be stuck on a BT based 8Mb package until 2011, then 24Mb for the rest of eternity.
Posted by Dorcots over 7 years ago
Are there any pics available of the the cabinets in use here or any other location?
Posted by CARPETBURN over 7 years ago
quote"so market forces come in, so it's compete in the high population density low cost areas for best return on investment."

Exactly,the country will still be a mish mash of haves and have nots, some areas will see choice others wont. Smaller areas neither BT or Virgin or anyone will be rushing to enable as obviously making a profit comes first (and rightly so).
Posted by themanstan over 7 years ago
I'd be happy for there to be localised monopolies if they were regulated properly. That would incentivise rollout, say give 3-5 years exclusive service to whichever company is prepared to invest in fibre to whichever village/small town. Then open to competition.
I'm in a small village just outside Oxford, so would love to have fibre. It's all down to OFCOM/gov in my view, they need to provide a guarantee of return in high cost areas.
Posted by themanstan over 7 years ago
At the moment returns from sticking money in a bond look better and that should not be the case.
Posted by martinaj over 7 years ago
Instead of just picking areas for special treatment, why do BT not consult and then install higher-speed services where they are most wanted, particularly in areas which have little or no broadband availability. The miserable people of Muswell Hill should have the special services removed forthwith!
Posted by Dawn_Falcon over 7 years ago
It's about test areas where they have diagnostic equipment, local engineers, etc. - this means a few areas "get lucky". Remote areas with low broadband availability don't make good testbeds.

I'd imagine that they WILL pick another area in future rather than muswell hill, but I can see why they wouldn't want to disrupt their trial more than necessary.
Posted by Somerset over 7 years ago
They did consult - the ISPs.

How do the ISPs know???
Posted by pbroido over 7 years ago
Does anyone know if there was a resolution to this problem. Can Muswell Hill residents get the service in the so called "Conservation Area" again?
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