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BT trial of Phorm ends successfully
Tuesday 16 December 2008 11:03:24 by John Hunt

BT's trial of the controversial Phorm advertising technology which looks at where users go on the net to better target advertising has ended successfully according to a statement from Phorm. Shares in Phorm jumped by 82.5p to 282.5p on the news.

"Phorm, the advertising technology company, is pleased to announce that the trial with ISP partner BT has now concluded. The trial achieved its primary objective of testing all the elements necessary for a larger deployment, including the serving of small volumes of targeted advertising. "Following the successful completion of analysis, both of the trial results and of any changes required for expansion, BT has informed the company that it expects to move towards deployment."

Statement from Phorm

The trial which involved 10,000 people, branded Webwise also helped protect users from websites that are thought to be fraudulent or untrustworthy. The Phorm technology used has raised many concerns over privacy, even invoking a police investigation (that was later dropped) in to secret trials that occurred without users consent. News that the system is heading toward a full deployment will frustrate those that believe there are still legal concerns with the system. FIPR (the Foundation for Information Policy Research) has been vocal against Phorm as it believes the system uses illegal interception and also infringes copyright of website owners.

Carphone Warehouse via their Talk Talk brand and Virgin Media are also expected to trial the Phorm system although they haven't advanced as far as BT. Virgin Media has stated that it is committed to implementing such a system though.

Comments

Posted by keith_thfc over 8 years ago
"News that the system is heading toward a full deployment will frustrate those that believe there are still legal concerns with the system"

If you don't like spyware then get a new ISP. Its the only language the likes of BT understand.
Posted by whatever2 over 8 years ago
that's fine if you understand what the problem is.
Posted by LCake over 8 years ago
"Statement from Phorm" - well they would say that wouldn't they.

There does not seem to be any statement from BT, so perhaps not everything is as rosy as phorm would like us to think.

"certainly still on the cards" is the phrase Mr Berkett (Virgin Media boss) used - not exactly "committed" then.
Posted by Dawn_Falcon over 8 years ago
Keith - Great. How are you proposing to fund that for those people?
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
quote"If you don't like spyware then get a new ISP. Its the only language the likes of BT understand."

Indeed Keith if the Anti Phorm Mob spent as much time looking for a new provider as they do whinging about phorm on forums like this they wouldnt have any issues. Phorm may be nasty, but sitting on your backside moaning to others about it wont solve the issue
Posted by LCake over 8 years ago
@CARPETBURN - think of it as individuals trying to counter the PR professionals, employed by phorm, by publicising what BT / Webwise / phorm are really up to, rather than whinging.

Otherwise all you would know about it would be the PR guff put out by phorm & BT.

You also need to consider that there are two ends to the web traffic that BT webwise / phorm intercept - the site owner visited by a phormed BT customer is also involved whether they use a "phormed" isp or not.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
quote"@CARPETBURN - think of it as individuals trying to counter the PR professionals, employed by phorm, by publicising what BT / Webwise / phorm are really up to, rather than whinging."

Nope its whinging... half those moaning know nohing about how or what phorm does and have listened to other fountains of nonsense.

If it affects them so badly they should just change ISP and shut up, its always the same people whinging about phorm, which leads to more dis-information.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
Carp ive heard includes.....
Its a trojan
Its malware
It can steal your bank details

and other meaningless paranoid and frankly stupid dribble.
Posted by chrysalis over 8 years ago
funny how fickle and short termist your average shareholder is, a sudden large jump based on a press release.
Posted by kamelion over 8 years ago
"f it affects them so badly they should just change ISP and shut up, its always the same people whinging about phorm, which leads to more dis-information."

So on that premise, rather than campaigning about issues that affect us in everyday life we should all just pack up and move to another country.
Posted by mixt over 8 years ago
@kamelion: I think that's pretty much the jist of it yes. Sadly, the phrase "you can run, but you can't hide" applies to Phorm. Once the technology is in one ISP (BT), and generating results and revenue, it won't be long before many more ISPs adopt it. So sure, move on if you want, but you will need to move onto to an ISP that charges premium rates above what other ISPs can charge that adopt Phorm technology. I guess the choice, as the say, is yours. :-)
Posted by keith_thfc over 8 years ago
@Kamelion - Campaigning is a waste of time. As with traffic shaping you just need to treat these ISP's with the contempt they deserve & find another ISP.

@Mixt - Plenty of ISP's out there that won't touch Phorm with a bargepole. Many will see it as a selling point that they refuse to install this spyware to pimp their customers details to all and sundry.
Posted by GoodLaugh over 8 years ago
@CARPETBURN

Sorry to disagree with you but this is the problem with using DPI equipment to examine/alter a WebPage, it "could" be used to deliver
A trojan
Malware
or even steal personal details?
INSTEAD or as well as just inserting cookies into a Users Machine!

(Apart of course from the increasing menace of Active Scripting inside inserted adverts, which is of increasing concern as a significant source of malware infections)





Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
^^^ A perfect example of the mis-information thats been spreaded about and lapped up by the foolish that have no clue what phorm is how it works or anything else and instead have had their mind poluted by dribble.
@Kamelion... Oh no campaign away, like BT or other phorm lovies are going to listen to someone on the net whinging about phorm. If it bothers you that much change ISP... Honestly do this whinging fools moan a certain supermarket is too expensive compare to another but still shop at the expensive one?
Posted by GoodLaugh over 8 years ago
@CARPETBURN

Notice I said it "could" not that it does at the moment!

If you have any real evidence rather than "scorn" perhaps you would enlighten me & many of the Experts in this Field, one of which was invited to examine the Process itself!

If BT were as confident as Phorm have just announced why are BT desperately trying to hang on to their Customers?
I've just been offered well under a half of my usual fee just to stay with them!
Posted by c_j_ over 8 years ago
The Register today reports a continuing outflow of Phorm executives. Phorm have announced the departure of their CFO and their UK CEO, and it's also noted by someone who should know that Phorm have changed their legal counsel.

Phorm's CTO, Stratis Scleparis, who was BT Retail's Chief Technology Officer while the denied trials were taking place, appears to be still at Phorm.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/12/18/phorm_departures/
http://www.phorm.com/about/exec_scleparis.php

Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
quote"If you have any real evidence rather than "scorn" perhaps you would enlighten me & many of the Experts in this Field, one of which was invited to examine the Process itself!"

Im not the one making things up about phorm

quote"If BT were as confident as Phorm have just announced why are BT desperately trying to hang on to their Customers?
I've just been offered well under a half of my usual fee just to stay with them!"

Nothing unusual Ive been offered discounts galore by previous ISPs to try to keep me
Posted by GoodLaugh over 8 years ago
The Comments like here by a Telecomm Issue are quite unusual
though!
http://web20.telecomtv.com/pages/?newsid=44292&id=e9381817-0593-417a-8639-c4c53e2a2a10&view=news

Why would all these Staff be moving, if the Trials were successful & the Business Model was sound?
Posted by mixt over 8 years ago
All you people who love posting URLs to media sites that dish out their own spin on the whole Phorm situation... you really amuse me. You seriously believe everything you read online? Seriously?! God, you are all brain washed! I don't even believe half of the stuff I see on TV these days - in fact, tell I lie, I don't even watch TV on a regular basis for that very reason!
Posted by mixt over 8 years ago
@GoodLaugh: Has it ever occurred to you that they are trying to save money and so are forced to cut back on staff within the company? Sometimes the most obvious reason is the right one but I suppose that's far too simplistic for paranoid Phormsters to grasp given the amount of bullshit there seems to be online about what Phorm is, how it works and why it's such a ... "bad thing".
Posted by mixt over 8 years ago
@keith_thfc: You said "there are plenty of ISP's out there that won't touch Phorm with a bargepole". You should have said "there are plenty of quality ISPs out there that won't touch Phorm with a bargepole". Zen, Be and possibly other smaller ones won't. However, "for the masses" type ISPs will. Because they have to. Because of what's called "customer churn" - which, ironically, is something that GoodLaugh is part of due to his posting above of "I've just been offered well under a half of my usual fee just to stay with them!" ...
Posted by mixt over 8 years ago
So ISPs will keep lowering prices, in an attempt to retain customers, and so need another source of revenue... aka Phorm. Sorry, if this technology is deemed fit for live production (and by the looks of recent trials, it is), it will be introduced into many global "for the masses" type ISPs on a humungous scale. I can guarantee it. Because the bottom line is - money and customer retention.
Posted by mixt over 8 years ago
And the sad fact is – most people won’t even (a) notice this has been done and (b) even care. So the tech savvy users of the internet world can protest until hell freezes over but I doubt they will be preaching to (and reaching) a very wide audience that even cares about the issues (falsely, in most cases) being discussed.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
^^^ LOL longer and more posts in a row than i think i have even ever done, but you know what...... VERY well said mixt, some fools will spout mis-information about phorm no matter what the real facts are, and others whinge and whinge about phorm rather than joining an ISP that dont use it, god only knows why but its been that way since the first phorm announcments
Posted by pigfister over 8 years ago
Data mining and Spying is what Phorm is, & it's not acceptable unless you live in the USA then AT&T do the CIA's Illegal bidding.

WOW how can anyone possible defend Phorm spying on peoples private life, and this is apparent from the BT webwise page which is misleading on purpose and is sold to it's customers as an anti phishing security tool.

Why are BT not honest about Phorm's use on it's own front page? Why do they purposly misslead?
Posted by dragon1945 over 8 years ago
CARPETBURN I am with Talktalk, which is "interested" in PHORM. You suggest I should up sticks and move to a new ISP if they take on PHORM? I can't though, as I am tied by contract to Talktalk for another 12 months. I am not certain if PHORM could be construed as a breach of the contract I have with them, which would allow me to terminate it. Maybe you have enough money to pay the penalty for leaving before the contract ends, but as I am a widowed pensioner I can't. I was stuck with Homecall after Tiscali took over, and had to put up and shut up until I could legally terminate the contract.
Posted by pigfister over 8 years ago
Maybe the bigger question is why the Government have allowed BT off the hook for their secret tests of this spying tool and delaying passing any information to European Commission regarding, of what I consider illegal tests.

And why has the ICO has allowed BT to purposely mislead their customers with the webwise page, as there is a link to the T&C stating the real use of Phorm?

And now BT deleting Phorm threads from it's forums.
Posted by pigfister over 8 years ago
The petition is gaining signatures but not much main stream media coverage.

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/ispphorm/

and the facebook is also gaining members!

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=9216870661
Posted by GoodLaugh over 8 years ago
@CARPETBURN

I don't mind you stating I'm posting misleading information if you at least provide some reasonable convincing reasons for this instead of "innuendoes & general bear baiting)

I STAND BY MY ASSERTIONS UNLESS YOU CAN PROVE OTHERWISE!

As for my position with BT, I am out of contract & will not commit to another contract NO MATTER how much more it costs me, until this System is SCRAPPED!

If it goes "live", I have a MAC code & will use it immediately!
Posted by comnut over 8 years ago
hmmm... seems about time for this link!! go on, it wont hurt to click.. :)
http://fukung.net/v/10093/a315ae1b107dbd3dc4749a8328d32fc0.jpg

- if you want a better policy, go use a PROPER forum :D
Posted by comnut over 8 years ago
pigfister: the simple answer is they dont have a clue... have you seen 'yes minister' ?? Its not the current party, either...
Posted by mixt over 8 years ago
A quick Google search suggests that this year 16 million UK households have an internet connection. Let's put that into perspective a bit.

The Number10 Phorm Petition: 20,000 people have signed it. That's an astounding 0.125% of households (assuming one person per house hold). *laugh* - and then we have…

The Anti-Phorm Facebook Group: has 2000 members, so that's a whopping 0.0125% of households.
Posted by mixt over 8 years ago
Until these percentages are up at nearer 10% and above, I think it is safe to say that Phorm protesters are wasting their time.

'everything that can happen, does' - http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/garrett_li si_on_his_theory_of_everything.html

I suspect Phorm will happen, or if not Phorm, another company offering similar services. Jump up and down and take your tantrums elsewhere because 99.875% of people just ain't listening to you, and more realistically, don’t care.
Posted by GoodLaugh over 8 years ago
@mixt

I think you need to put your Voting Numbers into perspective & try to avoid further misinformation not every one likes to Sign Petitions, I CERTAINLY DO NOT.
I looked at the petition more than 20 times before I signed it, but eventually decided it really needed voting for!

ABOUT NUMBER 4 ISN'T IT which will more than likely go up sharply when/if introduced to reflect the distaste & disgust Web Surfers feel when they realize what is happening whilst they are Web Surfing!

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/list/open?sort=signers
Posted by mixt over 8 years ago
@GoodLaugh: I think this is where you and I differ, and probably always will. I've always known that, unless data is encrypted, anything sent over the net is subject to being intercepted and analysed, without the consent or knowledge of either side (end user and website). If you want something to be secure, encrypted it. If you want a phone call to be unmonitorable, Skype it across the Internet (encrypted) rather than pick up your land line phone. Or better still, use your own encrypted communications solution involving only end point IP addresses, by passing any 3rd party helper (Skype).
Posted by mixt over 8 years ago
The Anti-Phorm fan boys are so quick to stamp out Phorm because of its privacy issues and monitoring of browsing habits, yet I don’t see them ranting and raving about Google who assigns a unique cookie to every new visitor (IP address, which is clearly personal identifiable information), and logs all search queries made against this cookie.
Posted by mixt over 8 years ago
I don’t see them protesting about credit card companies and financial institutions that monitor and watch every single card transaction that card holders make online and in shops enabling them to harvest and sell on what their customers’ spending/buying habits are so other organisations can send relevant junk mail to their homes.
Posted by mixt over 8 years ago
I don’t see them being that concerned about GOOG411, Google’s free automated business search service in the US, that is harvesting thousands of voice samples from Joe public to improve voice recognition, and to again probably track individual mobile phone numbers (and their associated users) search habits, again to target junk mail and relative advertising to their phones and homes and (this is the scary part)…
Posted by mixt over 8 years ago
…to probably improve the quality of voice recognition to a point where they will analyse spoken word audio streams to determine what is being said, and use that to fire targeted advertising/junk email to the people involved on a phone call, in much the same way Phorm does with HTTP TCP/IP data streams.
Posted by mixt over 8 years ago
In short, if you think Phorm is the next big privacy issue to hit the Internet, you’ve been living in a box for the last 20 years. It’s already happening, and been happening, for the past few decades, and we are all (including myself) part of a system that is inescapable, a system that knows everything about who you are, what you do and where you’re going.
Posted by mixt over 8 years ago
Privacy, compared to a 100 years ago, does not exist anymore, even though you may like to try and avoid the modern tools that organisations and governments use to monitor our daily lives. Although we are fast approaching 2009, we are ever increasingly being pushed into a 1984 society (George Orwell). Phorm is just another blip on this fuzzy screen of modern life.
Posted by mixt over 8 years ago
Protest at your peril, but there comes a point where governments will not look after the public and people need to start looking after number 1 – ie. themselves, by becoming more knowledgeable in technology and what is actually happening in the world around them. Don’t like Phorm? Move to a different ISP. Are you a website owner and don’t like Phorm? Move your site to HTTPS. Don’t like junk mail? Cancel all your credit cards and drop your bank account and deal in cash only. Don’t like GOOG411? Stop using your cell phone. But I can’t see anyone doing any of these things in a hurry! :-)
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
quote"I STAND BY MY ASSERTIONS UNLESS YOU CAN PROVE OTHERWISE!"
OMG another halfwit which thinks people that are not making false and unproven accusations about phorm are the ones that need to provide proof!!!

If you make assertions you generally have to prove them you dimwit.

As to why im not bothered about phorm, have you ever considered maybe its cos I have the brains not to use an ISP that’s part of the big scary phorm?

Maybe you should read this dimwit... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation
Then re-ask who needs to back up their statements :rolleyes:
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
Idiots, get a clue, if you believe half the carp you read on crappy sites like facebook change damn ISP... All the time you do not you define stupid to whole new levels.

Maybe i should go type a blog stating if you jump of a cliff you will fly.... I spose thats one way to get rid of you dumbos
Posted by GoodLaugh over 8 years ago
@CarpetBurn & mixt

I can prove my assertions, I can encrypt my data myself without Skype or a VPN but what about all the others.....

Google has more limits than Phorm does Google does not rely on DPI Kit inside the ISP Layer.

Try to follow my trail across the WWW & "before" unless you are privy to a few sites where I trust them with more info you may find it very hard!

And perhaps you should read
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation

because you are getting closer & closer to defamation yourselves with all your name calling!



Posted by Dawn_Falcon over 8 years ago
mixt - There is a fundermental difference between taking my business to a company, and using terms and conditions which allow them to gather data during that, and a company forcing it's business onto me, especially when they provide nothing of value and I cannot meaningfully opt out of it.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
quote"And perhaps you should read
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation

because you are getting closer & closer to defamation yourselves with all your name calling!"

Where did i called you a name?? If you want to assume when i say the word idiot i mean you thats your problem.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
Even if all the tripe people have spread around the net like butter on toast were true, maybe you would care to explain what you hope it will achieve?

Stupid people can not comprehend if you are with an ISP that uses phorm you are basically indirectly funding phorm, if you feel that bad about phorm, try guessing what the sensible thing to do would be instead of firing of a round of blanks.
Posted by GoodLaugh over 8 years ago

Rule 1 never discuss your Tactics with other eavesdroppers present.

Lots of words and acronomy here but no proper defense of Phorms Processes so I will give this Blog a miss at least for the time being!



Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
quote"Rule 1 never discuss your Tactics with other eavesdroppers present."

God only knows what that means, i spose you think phorm and BT are watching you and are going to send a couple of men in suits round if you dare act sensible and state you are going to change ISP due to phorm rather than cackling nonsense about how terrible it is
Posted by paulbacon over 8 years ago
Outrageous that an ISP should knowingly use spyware like Phorm and inflict it on their paying customers. Fortunately BT is not my ISP but if it was I would change providers, as I would with any other ISP that intentionally used Phorm or other similar programmes to spy on it's customers.
Posted by GoodLaugh over 8 years ago
@CARPETBURN

Unfortunately you last comment about being "SPIED" upon is "potentially" not at all far fetched!

I'll leave you to your ACID comments with this!

http://www.links.org/?p=304

Form fields in the request sent to the webserver are fair game, it seems. In other words, Phorm are quite happy to spy on what you type, but will ignore form fields sent to you by the server - well, that’s big of them: those fields are usually empty.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
^^^ Finally the explanation another paranoid Schizophrenic, that obviously believes everything any dolt on silly websites has to say
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
The phorm big bad men in suits are coming to get you......... WHITE SUITS in your case
Posted by GoodLaugh over 8 years ago
@CARPETBURN

I couldn't resist replying to your last post, have you good any more "Feet you can shoot yourself in?"

So far all you've done here is to attempt to inflame or denigrate anyone here who has any different opinion other than your own!

The Information was supplied by Phorm’s “top boffin” Marc Burgess, in the link below.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03/07/phorm_interview_burgess_ertegrul/
Posted by Dawn_Falcon over 8 years ago
paulbacon - You're funding them unless you move to an entirely different network. What's that, VM are discussing things with Phorm too?

Better to simply make it illegal.
Posted by Scamp over 8 years ago
It would not be out of place to keep in mind the real reason for this technology. It is not the insidious implementation of a facility that enables state spying on us all but simply to push product; to seduce, threaten and terrify the hypnotised consumer into buying more than he really needs, be it another mobile phone or a new acne cream. BT and others want a slice of the action.

The Internet provides the ideal shop window for finding almost any required product, why the need for even more ‘product placement’ if not pure profit?
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
quote"paulbacon - You're funding them unless you move to an entirely different network. What's that, VM are discussing things with Phorm too?"
Exactly, if these people are so bored with life all they have to do is come on a website rant about phorm yet still indirectly continue to line phorms pocket you really have to question their sanity, I mean for god sake we got one here who has to post meaningless dribble and meaningless unproven so called facts about phorm and then we have the other mob which just moan but continue to pay their phorm provider. Becomes more a question of their sanity!
Posted by GoodLaugh over 8 years ago
@CB
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monologue

*Rant*
For other uses, see Rant (disambiguation).
A rant (also called harangue or declamation) is a monologue that does not present a well-researched and calm argument; rather, it is typically an attack on an idea, a person or an institution, and very often lacks proven claims.
Some rants are used not to attack something, but to defend an individual, idea or organization. Rants of this type generally occur after the subject has been attacked by another individual or group.
Posted by mixt over 8 years ago
@GL: You've also just quoted what the media and press do on a daily basis, especially with Phorm, in a technical aspect. Read the spin you choose to online and formulate you're own (maybe false) opinions on Phorm, but at the end of the day, the individuals who have designed this system know precisely how it works, it's pros and cons, outwith what any anti-phorm individual or group may "rant" about through online blogs and internet media websites.
Posted by GoodLaugh over 8 years ago
@mixt

I know how Phorm/Webwise works & I don't need to repeat other users experience, having been on the receiving end of much of it since September 2006 (Case Still Pending with ICO!)

But as you say; my usually advice whilst trying to avoid the ranting from either side is to; Use any Search Engine you wish look at the evidence from both sides & then make up your own mind. (eg BT Webwise Phorm etc)

Whilst hoping many others will agree with me, I also respect every other individual has their own choice to make on the Issue!
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
QUOTE"I know how Phorm/Webwise works & I don't need to repeat other users experience,"

Users??? Experience??? are you toally insane its not even mainstream yet"

QUOTE"having been on the receiving end of much of it since September 2006 (Case Still Pending with ICO!)"

Ah so i was right you were one of the few they trialled it on and instead of just changing ISP you are ranting like a loon over something you apparantely hate so much but continue to indirectly fund..... You sir are a genius....On your home planet!
Posted by magenta666 over 8 years ago
As so as one ISP start using Phorm, it wont be long before the others follow.
So I have two questions about all of this:
1) How will Phorm affect MMORPG (The game sites and players)?
2) Does this mean that the ISP's that are going to be using this will bring there pricing down as they will be getting funding for commercials?
Posted by GoodLaugh over 8 years ago

One section of BT is desperate to get rid of me & another is trying to keep me(purely for the money of course) :) :)

Happy Christmas to ALL (including CARPETBURN) & may you carry on the feelings & fellowship to others throughout the coming Year.

Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
quote"One section of BT is desperate to get rid of me & another is trying to keep me(purely for the money of course) :) :)"

Sounds to me you are happy to keep paying, which given what you believe about phorm is sheer insanity.
Posted by GoodLaugh over 8 years ago

And a happy holiday & New Year to you again.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/cavil
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
IS the dictionary link an explanation of your issues with phorm?
Posted by GoodLaugh over 8 years ago
@CARPETBURN

Just for once try looking at some of the details for & against, instead of picking out irrelevant points designed to sidetrack the real issues!

http://comment.ofcom.org.uk/superfastbb/2008/10/fear-of-big-brother-is-a-threat-to-broadband-britain.html
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
The net is already monitored and certain things blocked anyway. All this nonsense about phorm is for paranoid idiots..... If you dont like phorm and your ISP uses it..... MOVE..... Its simple, everyone with a phorm ISP moves, ISP makes no money, ISP has no money for phorm...... Too bad thats just a pipe dream from me though as stupid people are too dumb to change ISP and would sooner dream up carp about things like phorm which they may use.
Posted by Dawn_Falcon over 8 years ago
People won't, Carpet. And ISP's who've signed it will be more viable than those who haven't (more money comming in). You need to stand against it, or see it spread...to your ISP.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
Agreed dawn, the best way to stand against it though is just move ISP. All the time a business can take your money they dont give a damn how much you whinge about the service. (I should know i own a small business and know while you can please most you cant please all you always have one whinger... Which because they are stupid come back the next week to spend more money.... and i happily take it LOL)
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