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Editorial: You're either on Virgin Media or you're in the slow lane
Thursday 25 December 2008 21:04:40 by Sebastien Lahtinen

Last week Virgin Media announced the launch of its long awaited 50 meg broadband service. At the press conference, it was clear that Virgin Media are pushing the boundaries on broadband, and for the first time, taking the lead by setting a new standard far in excess of what is commonly available in the UK market. It is positioning itself both as a premium brand as well as a bundler of television and phone services. This unique combination coupled with its new 50 meg pricing is likely to be a threat to operators such as Sky Broadband who rely on the LLU network, although it was very interesting to see Be/O2 react quickly to the launch with its own announcement of a near 50 meg alternative.

The boundaries between the online and offline worlds is closing as we update our status on Twitter from our mobile phone or access our home network whilst away via our broadband connection. We have no doubt that Virgin's 50 meg service will perform very well technically, initially at least, but what can you actually do with 50 Mbps? I think the key here is to remember that it means that everyone in the household can stream video from the Internet, at the same time, without loss of quality; no longer will you have to shout and find out who's hogging the Internet; everything is that bit quicker to load. Also, gamers will find the service very useful, as will those working from home. Virgin showed us we "have an appetite for data consumption" based on the fact their bandwidth utilisation goes up by 70% per year, and is expected to reach 100% per year within a couple of years, so this product is certainly welcome.

Thinking back eight years, in the dawn of the millennium, I was waiting for my cable operator (whatever they were called back then) to provide me with this new technology called broadband; but they did not. In the end, ADSL was available in my area first, and thus how ADSLguide (as we were called back then) started. Virgin Media has had the unique strength of a more modern network in the ground for some time, and it took them many years to realise how to use it, culminating in their 50 meg product which no large scale operator can easily economically match at this point in time, although Be/O2's bonded DSL service has some potential.

Whilst we've been quick to criticise Virgin for their 'fibre optic broadband' advertising (and 50 meg doesn't change that), they have now actually delivered a service based on fibre-to-the-cabinet (FTTC) whilst BT is just talking about it and trialling it. It doesn't however solve the need for fibre roll-out, but it does make the business case very different. The only risk now to Virgin is whether the state of the economy will result in fewer orders than they would have had a year ago.

Putting all this aside, as Virgin rightly point out, users don't care about how the broadband is delivered; all they care about is the service they receive. They are rather bullish about their service having put up the money to build the network, but they do have a right to be too. They clearly feel very passionate about this.

"You're either on Virgin Media or you're in the slow lane".

Neil Berkett (CEO), Virgin Media

The question now is, what will BT's response be? Virgin have already stated they have the technology to offer 100 Mbps broadband, today. That's a tough line to match.

Comments

Posted by drteeth over 8 years ago
All this would be all well and good if VM were expanding their network.
Posted by mr_chris over 8 years ago
Exactly... Mr Berkett might as well say "You're either lucky enough to live in a Virgin Media street (and on the correct side of that street in some cases) or you're never going to get a chance."

I appreciate that VM have just ploughed a whole lotta money into the new network, but maybe they need to think about some way of expanding. I wouldn't be surprised if they're getting towards saturation in the enabled areas and are flogging a dead horse (maybe with shiny new fibre strands!)

Come on VM, I might be interested if I could actually get it .. and no, moving house isn't an option!
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
OMG where to even start with this dribble....
quote"You're either on Virgin Media or you're in the slow lane"
Is this there new "catch phrase" i would had thought "You're either on Virgin Media or you're NOT CAPPED DAILY" would had been more accurate.
quote"This unique combination coupled with its new 50 meg pricing is likely to be a threat to operators such as Sky Broadband"
LMAO i dunno if they said that or staff here said that, lets see 50Mb virgin for £50 or Sky NOT limited broadband for less than (what is it now £10 tops?) threat ROFLMAO
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago

quote"no longer will you have to shout and find out who's hogging the Internet"
EPIC FAIL AND STUPIDITY if someone is downloading a large file at the full 50Mb rate you will still be shouting at them, my god virgin are full of the proverbial.
quote"Virgin rightly point out, users don't care about how the broadband is delivered; all they care about is the service they receive."
Which is why i will never pay £50 for a service thats doomed to be throttled daily within 12 months... What a complete pile of carp from their lips, as usual.
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
Someone has a nasty hangover this morning Carpet.

Nice writeup Seb, Virgin are somewhat unique in that they've released a DOCSIS 3 product without any FTTC/P competition.

As far as BT go I don't think they really care. They have never shown performance to be something they care about.

It's interesting to note comments directed at a new 'digital divide' above, it shows how much this product has differentiated between areas with and without cable, exactly what VM would have wished for.
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
Something also conveniently ignored by above poster is that the price premium on this on top of the existing 20Mbit service for those who already bundle, the vast majority, is just £10.

Those who aren't going to pay that won't, however the fact VM already have installation queues in the 10% of the network that it's been deployed to suggests there is a strong interest by early adopters, and no doubt the price can only come down.
Posted by farrina over 8 years ago
I had Telewest broadband for 6 years and what drove me away was the appearance of BE There. It Virgin are pricing the 50MB service as a premium product (and the price certainly suggests this) and still continue to apply throttling I wont be rushing back.

Realistically the only people really likely to appreciate the significantly faster download speeds are the serious downloaders. It will be interesting to see how they deal with this aspect as they surely cannot sell it on the basis that a site loads in a 1/10 second rather than 8/10.

I shall wait and watch.
Posted by drteeth over 8 years ago
@ Farrina

It would be nice to leave ADSL. My line degraded over a weekend and my former max 8000 sync is now a 6000. There's nothing I can do about it (done it all anyway).
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
quote"Something also conveniently ignored by above poster is that the price premium on this on top of the existing 20Mbit service for those who already bundle, the vast majority, is just £10."
Oh really..... http://allyours.virginmedia.com/websales/product.do?id=3246
and the price of the 50Mb product...
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/i/3823.html

Thats a funny £10 difference.... Sky have nothing at all to worry about, they basically give broadband away.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
quote"Someone has a nasty hangover this morning Carpet."

Pfft not as much as yours i can still add up.

The cheapest "BUNDLE" price for 20Mb is even less at £20... Ten quid difference my backside... Another defender of virgins cack which sounds like a virgin sales drone, tell it to someone with no brain power!
Posted by KarlAustin over 8 years ago
This site turns in to more of an extension of the VM PR department every day :(
Posted by scragglymonk over 8 years ago
Checked their site, Sorry, 50Mb broadband isn't available in your home yet...
So £29 a month, for the first 12 months, then just £36 a month after that...
Nice idea, but acceptable usage policy applies, although they do not bother to specify what it is, so not interested :)
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
Carpet, Carpet, Carpet.

On my triple XL bundle, along with VIP it's an additional £10/mth.

Even just taking a phone line: http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/internet/bb_deal_size_xl.html

So an extra £15 a month, for an extra 30Mbps downstream. Hardly extortion, and go find a competing product. Oh right there isn't one.

This site is telling it like it is, even if some don't like it.
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
Incidentally Carpet I'm far from a Virgin cack defender, I post in the forums as Ignitionnet. I'm far from a Virgin worshipper but the article has a lot of valid points and at least Virgin are offering this service, BT can't be bothered unless Ofcom give them what they want and no-one else has shown signs of making the investment beyond H2O who continue to border on vapourware with regards to their deployment in Bournemouth, or lack of thusfar.
Posted by Groovehound over 8 years ago
Virgin's (slow, 400kbps on 10Mb) upstream is congested. How on earth is cable attractive to a gamer for the money?
Virgin don't "have the technology" (decency) to offer 500kbps (upstream) broadband, today!
Indeed, I DO care about service, not how it's delivered. My Virgin broadband was out twice in 24 hours, but I'm still going to have to demand compensation instead of it being issued automatically. I missed a deadline for ordering items for Christmas due to this.
Also @ Dixinormous (oh har har) - bundles suck, the phone is overpriced vs. BT lines & the TV vs. Freeview is not worth paying for.
Posted by Groovehound over 8 years ago
@ drteeth

You could find out what idiots BT contracted have upset your line conditions, and get them to sort it out (once you jump through the 1001 hoops in the way)... at least you're not like my parents, whose adsl line was degraded to 270kpbs by a fault on the line 90M from the house. Of course, Plusnet couldn't diagnose that so wouldn't escalate the fault properly. Only when BT muppet subcontractors cut off the whole street was there anyone around able to test it properly...
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
Groove the upstream on the 10Mbit product is 512kbps and there's no congestion on upstream on VM's network because it's so relatively asymmetrical.

Over half of VM's customers take all 3 services so evidently the majority of them would disagree with you on bundling.
Posted by AndrueC over 8 years ago
"Also, gamers will find the service very useful". Eh? What game requires a 50Mb connection? Most will run fine on half a meg. Even if you include voice comms you'll still likely get change out of 1Mb.

Still, it's nice to see VM investing money. Time will tell how long it lasts though.
Posted by rupert31 over 8 years ago
VDSL anyone.. ?
Posted by 1Gopher over 8 years ago
Oh Very nice!! V media cant even supply the bandwidth to there existing customers!
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
VDSL is only deployable in the UK from cabinets, not exchanges. Fibre has to go into the loop to allow this.

The new VM platform will assist with regards to congestion hopefully - all 20Mbit customers will move onto the DOCSIS 3 platform leaving the 10 and 2 customers.
Posted by flamingo2 over 8 years ago
With 50 Meg it now only takes 10 minutes to get throttled back into the ultra slow lane!
Posted by chrysalis over 8 years ago
VM's prices are far from extortion, they actually charge for burst speed which is how it should be. Perhaps you all would prefer if they went the charge heavy price for usage route aka BT ipstream?
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
Dixinormous........ Nice to see even Virgin employees get some time off at xmas to spout tripe to the population rather than just down a support phone.
50Mb broadband is either £51 on its own or £35 PLUS £11 for a phone line (which equals £46) as stated here... http://allyours.virginmedia.com/websales/50Mb/index.do
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
Oh and for the other fanboys the 50Mb service is still subject to......
http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/legal/oncable/acceptableuse.html

See http://allyours.virginmedia.com/websales/50Mb/index.do scroll to the bottom and observe item numbered "2".

The promise of no throttles on the 50Mb package from virgin = LIARS.

Avoid these mis-selling liars is my advice! Anyone listening to people that sing Virgins praises need a frontal lobotomy.
Posted by Sej2 over 8 years ago
"Virgin Media to dump neutrality and target BitTorrent users"

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/12/16/virgin_bittorrent/

50meg = FAIL
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
I haven't been a Virgin Media employee for 3 years Carpet, and I've no idea when VM promised that 50M would come without throttling ever. I've no idea why such hatred but I'm sure a search of the forums will explain it.

Nice that anyone who disagrees with your obviously totally unbiased views is a VM employee though, there's debate at its' finest, extending to accusing this site of incompetence for disagreeing with you...
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
Oh regarding the AUP, you're aware that every ISP has one, even Sky's Max package has a 'renamed' AUP tucked aware there somewhere. It's how ISPs stop their customers from being spam relays, sending kiddie porn, etc, and doesn't necessarily mean restriction for heavy usage or that such restrictions will be applied. Even Be reserve the right to boot people for overuse.
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
Sej2 - we don't know how this will be done or even if it will be done. I was not pleased but we'll see what they do. If it's upload only and only applied when network is nearing upload congestion it may not be too bad. If on the other hand it's flat and brutal then for sure there's reason to be upset.

Carpet - you use UKOnline, why do you care what VM do with their 50Mbit service? They've no competition above 22.5Mbit at all as no-one else has made the investment and however shoddy you may think that service is it's exactly the only national service that operates at that speed.
Posted by Groovehound over 8 years ago
VM needs to be genuine about results and value
"The firm argues that its current "traffic management" policy allows it to ensure service quality at peak times for 95 per cent of customers while still allowing peer-to-peer filesharers to download large amounts of data."
Peak times suffer STILL, in practice. I'd support the current policy 100% if it worked as described. We trouble-shot the upload issue it to congestion/signal/modem issues. All VM's responsibility. Go figure re: prejudice, but I gave them lots of time and chance, and of course, money.
Posted by Groovehound over 8 years ago
Also, on a lighter note, LOL @ ubiquitous use of the simple "FAIL". Kind of true versus my mini-essays.
Posted by farrina over 8 years ago
I think VM are taking the p**s when they throttle people who have had the cheek to use their product at its maximum advertised rate for approximately 20 minutes.
The other matter I find distasteful is their inference that such users are stealing other people’s usage. Personally my view is that they (until the recent upgrades) have had insufficient capacity on their network to provide what they have advertised namely a 20meg service.
Of course the "naughty" 5% who hog all their bandwidth are in reality not likely to be the same people (the few excepted).

Posted by farrina over 8 years ago
I think VM are taking the p**s when they throttle people who have had the cheek to use their product at its maximum advertised rate for approximately 20 minutes.
The other matter I find distasteful is their inference that such users are stealing other people’s usage. Personally my view is that they (until the recent upgrades) have had insufficient capacity on their network to provide what they have advertised namely a 20meg service.


Posted by carrot63 over 8 years ago
Even if I felt the need for 50 meg, I certainly wouldn't trust VM not to throttle it at the drop of a hat once they have enough people signed up. They do have a rather poor track record in that department.

I'd really question whether "those working from home" would greatly benefit - is most homeworking really that bandwidth intensive? Or have I somehow missed MS adding extra bloat to Excel and Word files?

In any case, upload will apparently be 1.5Mb/sec - a somewhat less impressive improvement.
Posted by usenetz over 8 years ago
May I suggest people have a read throught this article by Andrew Rawnsley of The Observer wher he puts the case for investment in "the creation of a national fibre optic network capable of connecting everyone to super-fast broadband":
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/dec/14/recession-tax-spending-economic-politics
Posted by mickyricky over 8 years ago
If, like me, you were paying for 20Mb which thye have been unable to deliver for almost 3 months now (3Mb at best) and their engineers on the last call said 'if it were me - I'd look for a different service'. They told me earlier 'too many people on the line' and 'too big a problem'. Would you be getting excited at paying for 50Mb?
Posted by kendal01 over 8 years ago
re:carrot. your right, most home workers if any at all will not notice any difference. the majority of homeworkers access their services via thin client techs such as citrix. all this talk about needing ever increasing dl speed is rubbish. people will also find it would be virtually impossible to get a full 50mb dl speed from 99% of websites out there.
Posted by comnut over 8 years ago
so it continues...... <yawn> nobody will trust, so why the hell would VM trust????

And no, home-workers and gamers DO NOT need speed... they need good latency or Ping, easy enough without massive speed..

The main commodity here is greed, mine is bigger than yours, get something bigger, pay lots of cash to be trapped in a contract....

you are just as bad as those showing of in their 200mph supercar, when there is no place to actually get that speed.. and pay the petrol, at about 10 mpg???

Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
QUOTE"Carpet - you use UKOnline, why do you care what VM do with their 50Mbit service? They've no competition above 22.5Mbit at all as no-one else has made the investment and however shoddy you may think that service is it's exactly the only national service that operates at that speed."

LMAO yeah and my slower service doesnt have silly certain times of the day restrictions and allows me to download more in a day, week and month than any VM carp of a service. They can shove their 50Mb 50 inches right up their .......
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
Oh did i mention its also a cheaper broadband only solution and i dont have to trust a bunch of numptys to transfer my BT number over to their service (another thing they often promise but cant deliver on). Still atleast at last they got channels like sky one back for peoples viewing, too bad thats another con and you have to take the top tier TV services to get the main sky channels and anything remotely worth watching.
Posted by pcoventry76 over 8 years ago
I think everyone just needs to chill out and see what happens. Sure VM are not the best but their network is the most reliable and superior there is for most people. I say most because for people like Sid thats not the case. However I've yet to have an outage on my broadband. All the LLU and ADSL services all have noise and other factors that cause issues. Now I am not sure if there is such noise of fibre optics but I will say there is not at the risk of looking a fool.

Their network is better hands down. yes it's a shame the customer experience is less than poor when you contact them.
Posted by KarlAustin over 8 years ago
lol, VM is not fibre optic, despite what the ASA may let VM get away with - their network is copper for the most part, with fibre on the back-haul - exactly the same as ADSL is. As for the VM network being better, erm... I'm not even going to start on their usually heavily congested peerings etc. Just talk to anyone that peers with them.
Posted by pcoventry76 over 8 years ago
Oh okay I thought it was fibre in the streets and then copper or something else to the home.

Well if their network is copper then it shows they are much better than BT as bt's copper network is very faulty and well slow.

Why then can BT not have ADSL that is never faulty just like cable. Please explain that to me.
Posted by 4thenet over 8 years ago
This quote from ZDNET explains it very well.

"Virgin Media's 50Mbps service uses a combination of fibre and coaxial cable technologies. The core network is fibre, and fibre often connects the exchange to the street cabinet. However, unlike a true fibre-to-the home (FTTH) setup, the connection between the cabinet and the premises uses coaxial cable"
Posted by pcoventry76 over 8 years ago
Thanks that what I thought. i was going to say they could never do 20 or even 50MB over copper netowrk. The 21CN trials are running I know but VM have been doing this for years it had to be FO

Karl, The VFM network IS Fibre Optic. It's FTTC infact.
Posted by kendal01 over 8 years ago
last time i checked vm used traditional ethernet techniques for their services. there have been a lot of reports of mac address spoofing and of high collisions in dense subscriber areas.
Posted by rickw over 8 years ago
If only expensive wish for speed is the criteria then VM have something to offer.
However the complete package offered by VM is so far behind the competition, mainly Sky, to be not worth even clicking on their site to see if the service is available. Multi channel HD would make a good start and I stream reasonable video via iPlayer and a PS3 which also provides internet and all goodies. VM just doesn't stack up for this netizen anyway.
Posted by rickw over 8 years ago
WIW on my estate VM forced the residents to pay large money just to connect to their system and the continuous complaints ranging from telephones not connected after three months, TV ******, internet no where near the speeds expected and offered etc, and that doesn't even mention the apparently terrible VM accounting.
Posted by rasczak over 8 years ago
Dixinormous, "it's exactly the only national service that operates at that speed." ??

Can you explain what you mean by 'national service' I live in this nation, on the mainland, and I am at least 250 miles from the nearest cable service. How can that be a 'national service' ?
Of course the LLU providers are the same, but I am only about 200 miles or so from the nearest unbundled exchange.
Faster speeds are fine, but real increase is to expand the footprint of services available, as I have said before, if you advertise to the whole country, you should supply to the whole country.
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
It's available 'nationally' though coverage isn't 100%. By that strict definition about the only thing that's 'national' is air. Mains gas / sewage / water isn't national by that thought.
Posted by citizenx over 8 years ago
>i would had thought "You're either on Virgin Media or you're NOT CAPPED DAILY" would had been more accurate.

Realistically, most people don't care. Only a vocal few.
Posted by citizenx over 8 years ago
>My Virgin broadband was out twice in 24 hours, but I'm still going to have to demand compensation instead of it being issued automatically.

When did BT introduce an SLA for broadband? Must have missed that...
Posted by citizenx over 8 years ago
>50Mb broadband is either £51

How much does it cost wholesale for "upto 8mb" from BT? Scale that up.. is it competitive with VM?

Not that I even want the service but that's another matter entirely!
Posted by citizenx over 8 years ago
>Can you explain what you mean by 'national service' I live in this nation, on the mainland, and I am at least 250 miles from the nearest cable service. How can that be a 'national service' ?
Of course the LLU providers are the same, but I am only about 200 miles or so from the nearest unbundled exchange.

I guess you are in an area with an extremley low population density making it prohibitively expensive to upgrade or install this technology there.

Thems the breaks. If its that important, you can always move!
Posted by rasczak over 8 years ago
Dixinormous, there's gas, water and sewerage all on the mains here, yes some of the hamlets nearby have to go with septic tanks and gas tanks, but you don't have to travel hundreeds of miles to find be in a mains area.
I don't expect 100% coverage, and I don't expect it overnight, but why should you be allowed to plaster ads all over proclaimning the latest and greatest and then say, 'we don't offer it in your area', is that not misleading advertising ?
Posted by MrGrumpy over 8 years ago
citizenx

Have all the LLU options available to me at my exchange but still can`t get cable, thats assuming I wanted it? Certainly from the areas covered up here by cable, its major cities only, Edinburgh city centre, not outskirts and Glasgow area as well, I assume whole of Glasgow area.
Posted by rasczak over 8 years ago
citizenx, define low population density. If you mean the actual exchnage I am on then there is a reasonable density, we were the first this far north to get BT ADSL on the old tracker system, but if you take the whole region then there are so many little hamlets each with their own exchange, some only got ADSL with the Exchnage Activate scheme, then that skews the figures somewhat.
Posted by rasczak over 8 years ago
As I said I don't expect full overnight coverage, but something like the tracker that BT ran, ie saying, 'sorry not at the moment, but let us know how many are interested and we can see if it is viable for the future' rather than saying, 'no, not interested we can't see an immediate way to screw money from here and can't be bothered to see if it may be possible'

As for moving, sure that's possible, but not necessarily feasible depending on someone's circumstances.
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
rasczak - are they plastering ads all over, or are they plastering them on national media, national newspapers / TV?

Do you have advertising for VM's cable services in your local bus shelter / whatever? If you do they've badly messed up, but national advertising is national advertising. You might have an IKEA nowhere near you but see ads for one. Same for LLU operators, none within 200 miles of you but no doubt you'll have seen ads for them.
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
Regarding other things, Virgin Media have no new cable build planned, beyond some new developments and gap plugging around existing areas. Bluntly they can't afford the costs right now and the business case isn't there.

Enabling DSL in your exchange probably cost low 6 figures at most, to get cable to you would be 10s of millions.
Posted by bezuk over 8 years ago
Even if you live right in the middle of a fully cabled town, if you're in flats you still probably can't get it as I can't because neither the developer nor VM would pay for the building's wiring.

Very poor upstream and lack of static IP mean I'm not interested but it would be nice to have the option and they clearly have the technology to sort both out at some point. Luckily I'm close enough to the exchange to get 20/2.5 from Be which does the job.
Posted by pcoventry76 over 8 years ago
Citizen. Well they have enhanced care which means a fix within 20 hours. I was not referring to BT anyway :p
Posted by TerFar over 8 years ago
Well it is good to see that a provider acknowledges that there is a demand for reasonably priced fast BB for home users (especially with many of us working from home). But Virgin (and various companies) only cherry-picked the best areas for cable: there are millions of us (who live in large towns or cities) that don't have cable and unless OFTEL legislates, never will.
To the majority of Internet users, Virgin's service is totally irrelevant.
Posted by timhowsley over 8 years ago
My virgin ADSL speed is between 80k and 1.5m. my neighbour is with BT ADSL and gets 2 to 2.5m.

BT tell me it is virgins fault for not having enough band width at the exchange and advise me to change ISP. Is it true that Virgin are no longer interested in ADSL customers?
Posted by olddjc over 8 years ago
As a completely independant observer I have read these comments with interests.

My conclusions are

carpetburn = mindless moron = ignore
Others = against carpetburn = must have some sense
Posted by Kaufhof over 8 years ago
Optimistic?
Posted by amips over 8 years ago
Who thinks CARPETBURN works for BT or owns a lot of their shares? LOL !!
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
quote">i would had thought "You're either on Virgin Media or you're NOT CAPPED DAILY" would had been more accurate.

Realistically, most people don't care. Only a vocal few."

Oh that must be the vocal few that work all day and come home to a peak time capped service... While the leeching lazy unemployed bums get a service uncapped for several hours a day, assuming they can drag their lazy ass out of bed.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
@olddjc if I am mindless I don’t know what that makes you... Names start with a capital letter you clueless VM humping twit.
@amips obviously you are another newbie here that has as much clue as the typical VM supporter. Regulars here will tell you I often slag BT off over most of their decisions. I realise you supporting VM don’t have the intellect to be able to read though so ill let you off due to being born with a impairment. As to your LOL people the regular participate here are laughing at your remark not with it… Story of your life I suspect. Darn VM supporting worker bee tools!
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
It now appears obvious... The stupid on planet Earth are easily fooled by VM's dribbling tripe... So much so they not only sign up but start speaking carp just like VM.

Regulars here by now are probably wetting thereself at the remark im a BT supporter or work for them... Typical of a supporter or a halfwit that works for VM. Will you gibbering fanboys now kindly jog on and play with your capped bandwidth before you use it all here.
Posted by citizenx over 8 years ago
>Oh that must be the vocal few that work all day and come home to a peak time capped service... While the leeching lazy unemployed bums get a service uncapped for several hours a day, assuming they can drag their lazy ass out of bed.

Nope, its the vocal owt for nowt mechants generally. I should know, I was one on principle for a while.
Posted by pcoventry76 over 8 years ago
Well the UKO service was dire on my phone line, Let's start a debate about that..

You are not on VM carpetburn so why waste your breath?
Posted by KarlAustin over 8 years ago
@pcoventry76 - FTTC is not a fibre network any more than fibre to a BT Exchange is a fibre network. A fibre network implies fibre end to end and that is not the case. Sure, fibre may be nearer to the end user - but that still doesn't justify calling it a fibre network, unless of course it's acceptable for DSL provider to say, "Fibre optic network*..... *If you're withink 200m of the exchange"
Posted by AndrueC over 8 years ago
"I'd really question whether "those working from home" would greatly benefit - is most homeworking really that bandwidth intensive?". I doubt it. Our office serves four software developers that are part of a US based development team.

We manage on two load balanced 3Mb lines just fine.
Posted by AndrueC over 8 years ago
Carpetburn is mostly definately not a BT supporter, LOL. That suggestion likely either nearly burst a blood vessel or sent him rolling across the floor in a fit of giggles.

He's also not a moron. Very irritating, yes, but mostly because he's rarely wrong.

That kind of person can get right up my nose sometimes :)
Posted by rasczak over 8 years ago
AndrueC, "because he's rarely wrong." is that a different value of rarely or a different meaning of wrong to the accepted norm ? Carpetburn shows his ignorance most regularly in these comments with some absolute howlers, such as 'VAT registered businesses only pay the Ex VAT price' recently.
Posted by sunindra over 8 years ago
I am not a lover or hater of either VM or BT. However VM use COAX to deliver TV and broadband which is able to retain its signal for 185 meters which incidently was used in computer networks until RJ-45 took over. BT use a much thinner cable which was never designed for data. When I had a problem with my Cable TV service, VM came round and laid a thicker cable from the cabinet to my home, would BT be able to do that ?. Point being VM have a much better delivery but the backhaul can't cope. BT have poor delivery and don't need a fast backhaul.
Posted by pcoventry76 over 8 years ago
And.. Business pay full price but claim the VAT back. If I buy something it's always the ex vat price I look at.
Posted by meldrew over 8 years ago
A fascinating discussion! It too cold today to be bothered going out so I have spent a fair amount of the day in front of the computer. A 5Mbps connection is more than enough to book a holiday, check my bank account, send a few emails etc etc. I just wonder what percentage of the population need ten times this speed and are prepared to pay for it?
Posted by brush-head over 8 years ago
I've not seen anything about narrow band links in these discussions. Not all sites have access to mega bandwidth connections, so even if you do use the currently fastest VM service, you'll get stopped in yer tracks. At some point VM's network will also get strapped 'cos it can only handle a couple of these connections at a time. It will take more than one supplier & it will usually be the dominant one - who dat? Good ol' BT & they aren't showing any great rush are they?
Posted by herdwick over 8 years ago
BT have never bothered to compete with VM on speed, they could take 512k broadband custom in competition with faster cable due to the familiar Virgin customer service issues.

Talk of home working on Virgin makes me laugh, read the Legal Stuff "You must not ... Use any services (including, but not limited to, phone services) for commercial or business purposes; "
Posted by Reged over 8 years ago
What's cable? I can't believe that I live in North London and have no cable whatsoever. So forget about Virgin for me.
Posted by bearfreeman over 8 years ago
A BT engineer friend tells me that he's already installed fibre right up to people's homes - he lives in Hertfordshire.....
Posted by comnut over 8 years ago
brush-head: yes, VM's network may get strapped, but that will still be more than BT can offer!! (and until VM's new users exhaust their contracts, they are stuck... :/ and once they get 20Meg or more, wont like any less..)
Unless BT get their act together, they will just lose out to the faster LLUs, and lack of funds will slow or stop full rollout of 21CN...
Posted by Dawn_Falcon over 8 years ago
Gamers, avoid virgin media at ALL costs. The service quality fluctates wildly, and for large parts of the day it's quite impossible to get deacent connections: been there, suffered that

It's irresponsible (and I use that word deliberately) to recomend VM to gamers. 512KBit is sufficient for any game out there, ping and packet loss are the deciding characteristics, and where VM fail.
Posted by comnut over 8 years ago
Reged: no VM is not national, by any sense...
http://www.samknows.com/broadband/maps/25/
put your place in to the mapping engine for more..
Posted by speedfan over 8 years ago
I have VM cable BB in my home office, 10M service. Never had a problem in 4 years. Speed, never a problem.

Latest test:
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/results/id/1230629728294364833.html

Am I the only lucky one? I'm sure I'm not..but its only the moaners who generally post comments.

Posted by comnut over 8 years ago
you need to try a proper forum :)
http://www.forum.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=75
Posted by citizenx over 8 years ago
comnut - that'll be the forum which charges £5 (non refundable) for "validation".

To hell with that!
Posted by AndrueC over 8 years ago
@citizenX:Huh? £5 for valdation? What do you mean? I've been a member of Digital Spy for years so maybe I've missed something but I've never seen anything to indicate that they charge people to post.
Posted by Gzero over 8 years ago
Rofl:
"Please note that we do not accept registrations from most anonymous email service providers due to abuse issues; if you would like to register with an address provided by Hotmail, Google or Yahoo, we ask that you pay a £5 user verification fee so that we can firmly establish that you will not be using the account in contravention of our Terms and Conditions. If you do not wish to pay the charge please register with a non-anonymous email address for which there is no charge."

So much for that £5 fee.
Posted by Dawn_Falcon over 8 years ago
speedfan - The VM business service is a different quantity to the home service, and is considerably more expensive...
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
=Posted by bearfreeman about 21 hours ago
A BT engineer friend tells me that he's already installed fibre right up to people's homes - he lives in Hertfordshire.....=

The only deployment of any size is Ebbsfleet, Kent. Beyond that a few very limited trials. He's telling porkies or was involved in those, however Ebbsfleet is the only even close to commercial deployment of the technology.
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
-Posted by Dawn_Falcon about 1 hour ago
speedfan - The VM business service is a different quantity to the home service, and is considerably more expensive...-

It's not 'considerably more expensive' nor is it a different quantity. Uses a slightly different modem but which has the same 'cable' bits, and same network with no special QoS or SLA.
Posted by comnut over 8 years ago
citizenx: well I have paid absolutely nothing.....
Posted by comnut over 8 years ago
'anonymous email service providers' - just HOW difficult is it, to use a PROPER email account???? or even use a work or friends one to register??

with a forum as HUUUGE as DS, I think they want keep down the spammers... :)
Posted by kensand over 8 years ago
I don't need 50Mbs, but living in a none cable area I am not likely to get it. As a VM customer with an 8Mbs package it would be nice if I got better than 300Kbs for most of the time. Otherwise these adverts are irritating to say the least.
Posted by mcephas over 8 years ago
1st post - used to be with VM on 20meg for 1 year. now with BE Unlimited (24meg) for nearly 6 months. VM speed tests between 12(midnight) to 8am were between 16-18.5 meg. all other times less than 10meg. BE have 1:1 contention ratio & so far have been getting 17 meg AT ANY TIME of the day EVERY DAY. possibly downloading 100/150 GB per year & would never consider moving back to VM even if it was 100meg BB. I think OFCOM should make migration quicker (may be 1-3 days) & make 1 month contracts mandatory across all BB providers.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
quote"Carpetburn is mostly definately not a BT supporter, LOL. That suggestion likely either nearly burst a blood vessel or sent him rolling across the floor in a fit of giggles."
I actually fell off my chair, luckily i put down the cup of hot coffee first (wel lucky for me atleast LOL)
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
quote"He's also not a moron. Very irritating, yes, but mostly because he's rarely wrong."
Hold on... I even admit im not always right, however im also am not blinded and brain washed by certain ISPs unlike some obviously on this site ;) (they all know who they are hehe)
quote"That kind of person can get right up my nose sometimes :)"
I hope its a nice smell i washed my armpits just for you lol
Posted by Dawn_Falcon over 8 years ago
Dixinormous - That shows precisely what you know about the VM business service then.

mcephas - No, they just need to inform users of their right to break contract for grossly inadequate service and unilateral changes from the ISP to terms and conditions.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
quote"Well the UKO service was dire on my phone line, Let's start a debate about that..
You are not on VM carpetburn so why waste your breath?"
I assume when people attack the service i sub to they in some manner assume it bothers me? Obviously they do not read the UKonline forum, if they did they would see when issues occur with my service im just as vocal about it as i am about the likes of BT and Virgin. CONT
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
As to wasting breath, id actually think supporting a service you have no issues with anyway and arguing with those that think its a big smelly pile of carp is more a waste of time. You are happy with your VM capped service fine some here dont seem to be able to see the good and bad in all ISPs services though... That brainwashed thing again!
Posted by Dawn_Falcon over 8 years ago
Yea Carpet, you've clearly demonstrated it in the past and I applaud your change of heart in realising this.

Anyway, VM can technically offer a 100MBit service, I'm sure. The fact remains that the vast majority of ADSL ISP's provide a more *useable* service than VM's cable for most users.
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
Yes Mr Falcon it shows what I know having seen said business and residential service in action and supported both at a 3rd level of support.

I would be interested in seeing how the 'majority' of ADSL ISPs can provide a more usable service than VM's presently completely unlimited 50/1.5 service for most users.

If we run from that even if VM reduce the XXL tier by 80% the 10Mbit of downstream left will still be more than the 'vast majority' of ADSL ISPs can deliver, so frankly I think that's total testicles.
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
Ah Carpet, he of the all capitals username. Where's the cap on the 50Mbit service at the moment. Ah yeah, there isn't one. Rumours of one but nothing confirmed, but hey, why let facts get in the way of what you appear to think is absolute fact right now.

For sure people on VM's 50Mbit may get screwed, but hey there's nowhere else that people can even get 25Mbit let alone 50Mbit apart form a v few areas, and there's no confirmation that these things will happen. So conjecture wins!
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
Dawn - Right...

10Mbit/s residential = £24 - business = £40
20Mbit/s residential = £36 - business = £50

And again business and residential use the same network with no QoS between the two services. But hey again why let facts get in the way of a nice forum / comments post.
Posted by 1Gopher over 8 years ago
WHAT AN FFFKING JOKE After 5 Months of 200-300Kbps at peek times I can only get 18 MB at 03.00- 07.00 If i am lucky DUE TO DRASTIC OVER UTILISATION.
I cant download enough duriong the day to get capped!!! Waht a JOKE
Posted by SPOTTY over 8 years ago
Key phrases:
"users don't care about how the broadband is delivered; all they care about is the service they receive"...well so true and in two years when economies start to reveal the remodelled global economy we will be reaping the whirlwind if we fail to achieve a stable, national world-class digital comms network..and that wind will blow through all our lives.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
quote"Yes Mr Falcon it shows what I know having seen said business and residential service in action and supported both at a 3rd level of support."

Explains alot..... Uused to be 3rd level of support at virgin, explains the inaccuracy in the dribble you speak.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
quote"...but hey there's nowhere else that people can even get 25Mbit let alone 50Mbit apart form a v few areas, and there's no confirmation that these things will happen."
CONJECTURE WINS LMFAO, oh realllly, so come on then tell us all how MUCH traffic we can shift in a day on the virgin 50Mb service???
My LLU i can run flat out at its top end of around 20Mb without my ISP batting an eyelid. In a course of a day i can probably do more than double what the carp called Virgin 50Mb can.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
How about you tell me the benefits of switching to Virgin and your peddled 20 and 50Mb services and try telling me how much of a benefit it would be. Go on tell me how CAPPED, THROTTLED AND LIMITED 50Mb carp is worth DOUBLE what i currently pay LMFAO.
Oh and stop spouting verbal green stuff... Maybe being couped up fobbng people off in your level 3 support role you havent heard of bonded solutions (Bethere at 45Mb recently springs to mind) H20 that can dump on virgin from a great height speed wise, has been available to the PUBLIC less than a year and is slowly expanding.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
50 odd quid for capped, throttled, and in SOME areas never even gets NEAR its claimed top speed of 50Mb...... Or should people have a cheap but stable BT 8Mb solution or if they are lucky around 20Mb from LLU again for less than half the price... Dont need a Virgin sales drone to tell us the sensible option.

Pheeewww Now that was a rant, damn trained script reading monkeys from tripe ISPs.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
Better switch tactics you script reader..... babble on about how its fibre or other cack to keep the masses entertained.
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
I don't need to switch tactics, your rant mission above says more than I ever could. BTW it's 'drivel' not 'dribble'.

Just to correct a few things though.

I was not customer facing, no blaggery here!
50Mbit service is at present totally unlimited and has no congestion at all.
Be have no bonded product and H2O have no live customers apart from a few apartment blocks via Ask4.

But preach on with the half-truths, my popcorn is ready :-)
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
Ah also forgot, I was a network support bod, IE supported the network, not people. Not much room for blaggery.

Tell you what though as I'm reasonable.

Find me a single home with an H2O service in Bournemouth.
Find me where Be have a live bonded product for sale.
Find anyone on VM's 50Mbit who is seeing congestion.
Find anyone on VM's 50Mbit who is presently capped / throttled.

Otherwise do be a darling and stop giving your opinion as fact, thank you! :)
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
Ah also forgot, I was a network support bod, IE supported the network, not people. Not much room for blaggery.

Tell you what though as I'm reasonable.

Find me a single home with an H2O service in Bournemouth.
Find me where Be have a live bonded product for sale.
Find anyone on VM's 50Mbit who is seeing congestion.
Find anyone on VM's 50Mbit who is presently capped / throttled.

Otherwise do be a darling and stop giving your opinion as fact, thank you! :)
Posted by Dawn_Falcon over 8 years ago
Dixinormous? They've allready said 50MBit will be stamping on the service of 10/20 users to provide a "perfect" service until they've rolled it out actoss the country.

Hence, a large number of users are seeing a further degraded service to serve a few in the name of headline speeds.

Useability is not only about raw speed. Packet loss and ping are critical for many services, and VM fails and fails hard on that.

And yes, that's right - the VM business services are considerably more expensive (don't forget VAT as well).
Posted by Dawn_Falcon over 8 years ago
Spotty - Right. We need FTTC. If a few ISP's get shafted, oh well.
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
Dawn I'm totally confused. 50Mbit is using different equipment from the 10Mbit service, and all levels will be improved in quality by the migration of 20Mbit customers from the relatively limited 1 - 2 38 - 51Mbit downstreams to 4 - 5 x 51Mbit downstreams to be balanced across?

So I'm not sure what you're talking about, the 50Mbit rollout increases capacity across the board, it is in [b]no way[/b] taking bandwidth away from other tiers, it's more than doubling in some cases quadrupling the capacity available!
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
I'm also not sure what you're talking about with regard to packet loss and ping - VM does not and has never failed 'hard' on that - I'd draw your attention to the Samknows Performance Network tests.

Lots of opinions in this conversation but few backed up with any kind of facts, from several corners.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
Can certainly tell you have been virgin support Dixinormous, you havent answered a single question about the service i or anyone has addressed to you. This people is the same support Virgin give you AKA NONE
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
I do love the way virgin hide this well away from people... http://www.virginmedia.com/help/traffic-management.php (People try going to the virgin site and help section and finding a direct clickable link to that!) Incindentally whats the upload speed on this 50Mb carp service? With dixinormous sales cretin spouting its praises im curious if i should be contacting the ASA before they have already got started.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
If its still 768k then phrases they like to use at press events like "You're either on Virgin Media or you're in the slow lane" Are another inaccuracy as you can get 800 odd k on BT services and my LLU gives me sync speed in excess of 1Mb.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
Still wont be the first time VM have had ASA booting them up the ass for false statements and advertising.
Posted by BlackAle over 8 years ago
I'm curious why some people get so worked up about a service they don't use, and probably never have.

Have been using VM for 2 years here, a fairly heavy user. A point to note, the vast majority of users never notice the traffic management, personally I just work out it. I don't lose sleep over it, like I think some people here do.
Posted by BlackAle over 8 years ago
I meant...

personally I just work around it. I don't lose sleep over it, like I think some people here do.
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
I was not Virgin 'support' as in residential Carpet I'm sure we've already been through that.

Your other points I could answer but you're just trolling. I would hope you know the difference between congestion and contention, and why even UKOnline and Be have an FUP, and don't need me to answer.

Sky, Tiscali, BT, UKO, all have has ASA adjudications again them.

I'm singing no praises I'm just giving facts, tricky concept I know. Apologies that this goes against your view of the world.
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
Are you sure that you are not Virgin support actually? Seeing as you made a load of assertions earlier and have yet to answer my very clear and direct questions on them:

Find me a single home with an H2O service in Bournemouth.
Find me where Be have a live bonded product for sale.
Find anyone on VM's 50Mbit who is seeing congestion.
Find anyone on VM's 50Mbit who is presently capped / throttled.

Oh yes, the upload on the 50Mbit is 1.75Mbit, easy enough to find out when not on a ranting run.
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
I quite agree with you on the upload, I'm the guy who ran a blog on it, but hey easier to call me a VM fanboy / sales cretin just because I disagree with you and you are always right even when you can't back up most of what you say.

I'm not sure that it'll get ASA'd though, seeing as it wasn't an advertisement but a comment from the CEO, but again since when have you let the facts cloud your diatribe in these comments? :)

But do carry on, you're amusing me greatly!
Posted by speedfan over 8 years ago
"I do love the way virgin hide this well away from people... http://www.virginmedia.com/help/traffic-management.php (People try going to the virgin site and help section and finding a direct clickable link to that!) "

Easy...
1/ go to 'virginmedia.com'
2/ click on 'help'
3/ scroll down to 'Traffic management information'
4/ click on either 'cable' or 'national'
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
quote"UKOnline and Be have an FUP, and don't need me to answer."

Indeed they do, doesnt get forced on many though and the very few it may get forced on its not daily.

quote"Sky, Tiscali, BT, UKO, all have has ASA adjudications again them."

Id like to read a adjudication against ukonline as im with them. Do you have evidence to back up this claim or is it more VM staff dribble, bordering on slander? (Prepares myself for a link several years old)
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
quote"Easy...
1/ go to 'virginmedia.com'
2/ click on 'help'
3/ scroll down to 'Traffic management information'
4/ click on either 'cable' or 'national' "

FAIL.....
Going to virginmedia.com and clicking help (in yellow to the right nice and clear) takes you to this page
http://www.virginmedia.com/help/
NOTHING about traffic management let alone a clickable link on that page. Try again!
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
Carpet, ok fun as this is:

I actually worked for Easynet for 2 years as well as ntl / VM, so don't try the 'staff idiot' thing.
I suggest you do not throw the word 'slander' around so easily, especially considering the other things you have said.

Now dealing with other things more specifically.
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
As previously mentioned if you actually try scrolling down on http://www.virginmedia.com/help/ you will see traffic management information.
I never said 50M would not be throttled, I said that it *is not* - you were claiming it was.
What I say on a forum is not the ASA's province, upload speed has never been a consideration in advertising anyway - I know this as I have used that ASA reporting button against a number of companies including VM.
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
In any case the threats you've thrown are a tad too far, along with your aggressive, obnoxious attitude with anyone who disagrees with you and extensive misinformation, which will hopefully be cleaned up.

You've done nothing bar throw insults and not back up your points nor answer requests for backup - you have no interest in reasoned debate just in this being your personal soap box.
Posted by speedfan over 8 years ago
Quote: "NOTHING about traffic management let alone a clickable link on that page."

Can I suggest that you either get a new pair of glasses, learn to use the scroll bars or see your doctor rgarding word blindness.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
quote"As previously mentioned if you actually try scrolling down on http://www.virginmedia.com/help/ you will see traffic management information."

Yes i see it now, at the time of replying though in the space it was a news linked item. At that time the link was burried away in other small print links. When im wrong i can admit to being so and as it NOW stands there is a link to traffic management on that page.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
quote"I never said 50M would not be throttled, I said that it *is not* - you were claiming it was."
It is throttled some customers that upgrade are already throttled as i linked to so will new customers be. VM has said it will be throttled, even if at this moment it wasnt throttled for anyone telling them it is not a throttled service is misleading especially when you know it is about to be throttled very shortly. Finally where is the link or evidence to show an ASA adjudication against ukonline? I wonder if you will similarly have the balls to admit when you are wrong?
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
See previous comments and I'm sure you're quite capable of using search functionality. Beyond that no interest in wasting my time with you.
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
I was indeed wrong, it actually consisted of a complaint made to the ASA and a complaint made to Ofcom, both of which were resolved with guidance but without adjudication.

My apologies. I would welcome your similarly having the balls to admit that you are wrong claiming that VM are throttling 50M right now, as the link you provided specifically mentions no throttling now but it potentially happening middle of next year, along with the other misinformation you've thrown around during this conversation. I'd also welcome a lottery win, both are similarly likely though.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
QUOTE"I would welcome your similarly having the balls to admit that you are wrong claiming that VM are throttling 50M right now, as the link you provided specifically mentions no throttling now but it potentially happening middle of next year"

Oh i see 6 months down the line into a 12 month virgin media contract you and your company are gonna give it to people right up the backside. How kind and clear of you and virgin media. Is it company policy to inform people they will be throttled approx. 6 months in on their 12 month contract?
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
I wonder what ofcom will have to say sometime in summer 2009 when millions of complaints from people that were sold a 50Mb UNLIMITED service are no longer unlimited? Oh who am i kidding ofcom like Virgin and selective with facts and punishment.
Posted by Dawn_Falcon over 8 years ago
Dixinormous - Well yes, you'd be confused given they've stated that 10 and 20 Mbit are on the same network as 50Mbit. Either VM is lying in their press releases or you're wrong.

And where are they magically getting the frequence spread from? Are they introducing new compression for TV channels (with the associated quality issues)? They couldn't more than double with the existing avaliable frequencies...

And I suggest you talk to VM users, and their inability to play games online for 12 hours of the day, not high level network tests (which can easily be fooled).
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
Hi Dawn:

20Mbit has been migrated to same equipment, leaving 2 / 10Mbit on legacy platform. They all use the same physical kit up to hubsite / CMTS / M-CMTS level.

Frequencies came from analogue switchoff / reduction. DOCSIS 3 used 3 analogue TV channels worth of RF bandwidth.

The tests aren't high level - every upstream and downstream port on the VM network reports its' utilisation at 5 minute intervals.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
quote"20Mbit has been migrated to same equipment, leaving 2 / 10Mbit on legacy platform."

And those 20Mb users are throttled just as ALL the 50Mb users will be, reports in the press and associated computer magazine litrature (I think it was webuser i read today with a letter from some poor VM user who is still capped) also indicates those that upgrade from 20Mb to 50Mb are still being throttled.

Frankly i couldnt care if the service is delivered by string or fibre is about time VM were punished by a regulator for their blantant lies and bending of the truth.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
@Dawn_Falcon that also is a very good point, i dont know how long ago it happened but VM apparantely have Sky One and other channels back now, which they didnt have for a while as like cry babies they didnt want to pay the fee Sky were asking for the broadcasting rights.
Posted by Dawn_Falcon over 8 years ago
No Carpet, they refused to play along with Sky's blatent extortion. I don't have much good to say about VM, but in that case I cannot in any way blame them.

Dixinormous - So you're saying VM are lying in their press releases. Interesting. Also, i'm not talking about NTL's internal monitoring.. (which still can't detect cloned modems...)
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
Dawn - 20Mbit has been moved to the new platforms in areas where that platform is live. Unsure about the 10Mbit customers though.

The new platform is immune to cloning - to do so requires physical access to the modems.

I apologise for confusion with monitoring, I thought you were referring to upstream congestion. I don't agree with STM and am not going to comment on it.

Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
Dawn - I see the story you've referred to now. I would imagine that it's a staged migration, as I said 20Mbit *has* been moved, perhaps 10Mbit will follow - what I've heard will happen later this year suggests that's the case.

Not going to talk anymore about it else I'll get slapped :)
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
quote"The new platform is immune to cloning - to do so requires physical access to the modems."

Oh my talk about a quote that is likely to come back and bite someone in the backside LOL ;)
Posted by Dawn_Falcon over 8 years ago
Getting physical access? Well, yea. Given the implication of NTL engineers in mass-cloning issues in the past..

(Also, new scam: fake NTL engineers looking to access your modem so they can clone it, woo!)
Posted by Dawn_Falcon over 8 years ago
That second one should be "VM engineers", my bad.

And ah, so the 10MBit's being moved when the rollout's complete. That'd explain why they'd then need to apply traffic shaping from that point on.
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
Oh my, talk about needing to actually read about the technology before commenting though as we can tell from the rest of this thread facts backing up statements are not a strong point.

When the BPI+ technology being deployed is fully broken, then the entire certification system that backs up SSL sites on the internet will be toast.

Google X.509 and Baseline Privacy Interface Plus if you decide to break a habit and learn some facts to back up your opinions :)
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
Dawn, you need to log onto a modem, steal its' certificate and private key, which is not available without plugging something into the modem and pulling it from it with a console cable.

Also to be honest if you can get into someone's house pretending to be a VM engineer are you really going to only be there to clone their modem?

Let's get real here. You get into someone's house you're going to be after things a tad more valuable than the RSA keys from their cable modem.
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
Dawn - No idea when the 10Mbit is being moved over, I didn't say anything about it being moved when the rollout is complete either, we can all assume but don't know.

ntl engineers implicated in the past were handing out pre-hacked modems. Can't really do that now, even if a modem is perfectly cloned certificates and all it will be immediately killed off - centralised DHCP clusters replacing the regional ones are your friends for clone killing.
Posted by kendal01 over 8 years ago
dixi- you should know by now theres no such thing as a completely secure network. hell even ssl has been busted open now.
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
Not really, an MD5 hash collision has been brute forced and shown to be practical but SHA-1 is still fine. BPI+ uses SHA-1.

I didn't say it's completely secure but that it's immune to cloning - I should have been more accurate and said immune to *MAC* cloning.

Posted by cerbandy over 8 years ago
Give me 10Mbps down if you can give me 10Mbps up.
Don't give me 10Mbps with 768kbps up!
Gamers will laugh their heads off, and as for business, 768K is absolutely useless.

I'm glad you mention the bonded ADSL2+ service, which my company now offers. 48Mbps down, 4.8Mbps up. Check your line length to the exchange, if its less than 700M, you will most likely get speeds of about 40/4.

Virgin need to deal with the upload issue, more and more we need upload just as much as download.

DO NOT LET THEM DECEIVE YOU
Posted by Somerset over 8 years ago
What do gamers need?
Posted by kendal01 over 8 years ago
beg to differ dixi. sha-1 has been hacked.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
quote"Not really, an MD5 hash collision has been brute forced and shown to be practical but SHA-1 is still fine. BPI+ uses SHA-1.

I didn't say it's completely secure but that it's immune to cloning - I should have been more accurate and said immune to *MAC* cloning."

BWAHAHAHA Good luck with the new massly cloned devices on your network is all i am going to say. Mac cloning of almost any router is a very simple thing to do, as to your SHA-1 protection LOL so you think something several years old hasnt been hacked? BWAHAHAHA
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
You show your ignorance well Carpet. It's nothing to do with MAC cloning of routers at all, the old attack centered around stealing a subscribed modem's MAC and copying it to your own using hacked firmware and soldered interface but carry on with the ill informed ranting as always :)

SHA-1 has been cryptographically broken in that it's possible to force a hash collision in less time than a full brute force, but it still requires 2^69 operations to do. Do modem hackers in the UK have access to sufficient computing to execute a 2^69 operation attack? No other cable hackers in the world do...
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
Incidentally let's discuss something even older than SHA-1, RSA. There's a crypto system that's getting on, and is unbroken.

In short Carpet you'll full of opinion and hot air and have no idea what you're talking about. So yes of course everything is eventually hackable, however in the case of SHA-1 and RSA, the main components of BPI+, an attack isn't really feasible. If you've enough computing power to mount an attack like that you aren't going to be aiming it at breaking a single poxy cable modem.
Posted by Dawn_Falcon over 8 years ago
Dixinormous - Actually, fake engineer scame of that nature work because they can get away with it, conventional theft is noticed.

I'm pleased to hear they're finally centralising DHCP servers, mind you. Hopefully with actual backups.
Posted by kendal01 over 8 years ago
do you work in security dixi?
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
It's a part of what I do, and I'm taking a Master's in it later in the year Kendal.
Posted by comnut over 8 years ago
cerbandy: That will be SDSL then!! good luck finding it..
Posted by comnut over 8 years ago
- and NO, MOST find just downloads fine, it is the minority seeders and hackers that complain...
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
quote"It's a part of what I do, and I'm taking a Master's in it later in the year Kendal."

Bwahaha pity you didnt put your vast *big cough* knowledge to some use when you worked for Virgin to stop cloning in the first place.

As to how you clone a modem on virgin i dunno what the hell you are on about when you say and i quote "stealing a subscribed modem's MAC and copying it to your own using hacked firmware and soldered interface"

It can be done totally with software, no firmware alteration or silly interface now needed (unless you count a serial port as a soldered interface LMAO)
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
How true, apart from that there are no serial ports on the Ambit modems that VM provide and haven't been for years so you have to solder your own, and to reprogram them requires a firmware flash.

Apologies for once again being rude enough to bring facts into your rants, cheers for the insults too, appreciate it.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
Errr the port you connect your serial cable to is inside the latest modems... All you need is a serial to serial male cable and an adapter to connect the cable inside the modem (dodgy ebay'ers will flog you that). No soldering required.

Firmware flashing is no longer needed, there is equally dodgy software now where you just connect the thing enter the MAC and its job done.

Infact if you have several MACs you can leave the modem open with the cable connected and change it as you please.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago

Virgin and spoofing, cloning and other dodgy things has always been a problem and to suggest it wont be with the new services is silly especially as in some instances the customer will have a modem and a router so thats a nice 2 bits of gear to attack now.
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
Yeah something like http://www.tcni...net/ products where the firmware has already been flashed and the soldering already done for you. Firmware as standard doesn't let you enter a MAC address onto a cable modem.

What are you on about, what good would cloning a wireless router be?

Breaking the modem firmware is as I said pointless, you need to steal certificates, which can only be obtained from a modem directly as they are not sent 'in the clear' at any stage.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
quote"What are you on about, what good would cloning a wireless router be?"

Oh dear, ill think ill let someone else explain that to you... Ill be over here >>> lauging very loudly
Posted by Dawn_Falcon over 8 years ago
Dixi - He dosn't get the technical implications of anything, it's pointless (if amusing) to debate him.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
The technical implications???

My got even if what the virgin worker said was true the toal technophobe can still buy pre hacked VM digiboxes and modems and routers off fleabay
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
OMG time to change the keyboad batteries.
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
Dawn - yep noted, wouldn't even go as far as to call it debate sadly, that requires 2 participants.

It's not even the technical stuff that's the issue, it's subject changes such as changing the subject to try and prove a point, example being claiming the new network is hackable then pointing to the old network as being hackable.

Not entirely sure what 'VM routers' are going to get people though. Quite sure you can't get free cable whatever router you plug into your modem but *shrug*
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
quote"Quite sure you can't get free cable whatever router you plug into your modem but *shrug* "

Suggest you go back to VM training s school.

Any house that has previously been hooked up to VM all they need is a cable capable router with a stolen identity, plug it in and if its anything like my area people are actually getting the service and not even paying a penny for it.
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
Suggest you grasp the difference between modems and routers - there are no consumer greade routers available in the UK which are also cable modems, 'cable capable routers' or 'broadband routers' connect to cable modems via Ethernet.

There are very few devices which are a router and a cable modem in one and these aren't what people are using - why bother spending out for a Cisco when you can get a dodgy modem for much less?

Aaanyway.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
^^ Er the likes of Netgear and Belkin make combined cable modem and routers. They are available at a tiny shop called argos.... Like you say very rare (sarcasm off).
Posted by kendal01 over 8 years ago
CB, i think you should provide a link if argos are indeed selling them. good luck in finding it! ebay would be one of the few sources you could get a cable modem.
Posted by kendal01 over 8 years ago
also since your alledgedly so clever dixi you can cut the rubbish about being unhackable. where theres a will theres a way as they say.
as i've said before there is no such thing as a completely secure network.
Posted by Dawn_Falcon over 8 years ago
Carpet - You really don't understand what a cable modem is do you? Hint: It's not an ADSL modem.
Posted by comnut over 8 years ago
<sharp intake of breath> shoulda checked your source..... :( :(

yes, you can see cable routers on fleabay, I think I recognize one as the TW version... hey its YOUR cash....

The main problem is, EVEN companies sell 'cable modem routers' - It is actually very bad grammar... >:(

Its NOT a router, but 'to be used with' a cable router...
Posted by comnut over 8 years ago
Dixi, 'router' is another totally abused word, most often used by the same clueless companies for their modems, that have any number of Ethernet outputs, usually just one!!!
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
kendal - BPI+ has been around for a while and has resisted attack. Of course it can be broken but for practical purposes it will be superceded before then.

You are right though I should have chosen my words better. Unhackable is too strong a word for any security.

Comnut - 'Cable router' does not mean it has a cable modem in it. See what Dawn said above. 'Cable routers' plug into modems - check the specs on them, bet there's no RF section, kinda necessary for a cable modem.
Posted by comnut over 8 years ago
did you not understand my last comment???
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
Not really no. If there's an RF section in the specs of the devices fine. The gack that might be advertised on ebay doesn't really mean anything. I have done a couple of searches for cable modem router and cable router and all I came up with was either straight modems or 'broadband routers' with ethernet in and out.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
I think you will find Belkin and buffalo to name just 2 companies do indeed make combined modem/routers for cable. Alcatel also used to (under the speedtouch banner) but in recent years they seem to concentrate on NON cable stuff
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
For the other idiots concerned that claim CABLE modems and routers dont exist or are hard to get... Mayb e you should read...
http://www.dlink.com/ product range.

They have several combined modem/routers for cable as well as just routers and just modems
Posted by comnut over 8 years ago
The first is easy enough..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Router

The point I was making, is that a 'cable modem router' is like a 'PC monitor' , 'car engine'...

It is designed for it - a monitor is not a PC, an engine is not a car.. but they are pointless without it!!

Posted by comnut over 8 years ago
so a 'router' to be used by a 'cable modem' ..:)

of course cable modems exist... trouble is, they are about as useful as a SkyDigital box in the USA...
Posted by BlackAle over 8 years ago
CARPETBURN finds it easy to throw out insults like idiot, though in fact, all he's doing is showing how clueless he really is.
Posted by BlackAle over 8 years ago
maybe CARPETBURN should link to an actual product page of the cable modem router, if he's so confident that such a consumer product exists.
Posted by Somerset over 8 years ago
Is this something that connects directly to the cable coming into the house???
Posted by kendal01 over 8 years ago
you could be waiting for a long time for that link Ale! he might find one in the states but i doubt the uk.
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
comnut - ok got you. Yeah totally misleading is why they tend to be called 'broadband routers' - I suspect they were told that calling them cable routers when they need a modem is not clever.

Somerset - Yes it is.

They do exist Motorola SBG900 and SBG940 Surfboards being examples, but try finding them here.
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
So Carpet, I went to http://www.dlink.com and clicked the Cable/DSL Modems button, then clicked 'Cable' and it came up with exactly one match, the DCM-202 Broadband Cable Modem.

I clicked 'info' and it appeared to say 'Router - No'.

I even went to their cable/DSL router page http://www.dlink.com/products/category.asp?cid=2&sec=2

That drew a blank too. Maybe they forgot to put these cable modem routers on their website?
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
Quick Ebay search for the Motorolas. SBG900 gave 9 matches. 8 in the US, 1 in Australia. No SBG940s.

Carpet, please, just admit you got confused about the difference between 'broadband' routers and routers with incorporated cable modems. *sigh*
Posted by comnut over 8 years ago
BlackAle: her's one..
http://broadband.motorola.com/consumers/products/sb5120/

five of them listed here...
http://broadband.motorola.com/consumers/support/default.asp?supportSection=CableModems
Posted by comnut over 8 years ago
Dixi: four results here..

http://search.motorola.com/query.html?col=corp&col=moto&col=em&col=etm&col=pcs&col=temp&charset=utf-8&qp=site%3Abroadband.motorola.com++DCSext.locale%3AWW-EN+HM_country_locale%3AWW-EN+country%3Aww&qt=SBG940&Submit.x=13&Submit.y=8
Posted by comnut over 8 years ago
or type it into the search..
http://search.motorola.com/query.html
Posted by comnut over 8 years ago
Cablemodems are everywhere in USA, but they are rare in UK, due to the VERY low number of cable ISP's.. If you try to use one of the above here, you will have about as much success as using a *old* TV from USA...
Posted by comnut over 8 years ago
Dixi: as I said, EVEN big companies make the same mistake!!

And now YOU are, using the word 'broadband' that covers ALL Internet services to a private house!(cable, wireless, sattelite, DSL, mobile phone...)
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
comnut - Routers sold as 'broadband' routers which are ethernet in and ethernet out, and called broadband routers because they work with anything... so long as you put the appropriate modem in front of them.

Most of those Motorolas are modems only by the way. They're not routers which is what was being discussed, combined cable modem / routers. I mentioned 2 Motorola devices above.

Anyway silly thread. Yes cable modem / routers exist, and you basically have to import them into the UK yourself and indeed hack them yourself as hackers aren't that interested.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
quote"CARPETBURN finds it easy to throw out insults like idiot, though in fact, all he's doing is showing how clueless he really is."

Ergo what you have just stated is what you really are? (try figuring that out)
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
quote"maybe CARPETBURN should link to an actual product page of the cable modem router, if he's so confident that such a consumer product exists."

Maybe you should learn to read and click the dlink URL i already gave.... Oh sorry let me guess ya too stupid to click where it says modem, router and cable.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
quote"you could be waiting for a long time for that link Ale! he might find one in the states but i doubt the uk."

Another that cant click a link or look through a product range of several items.... Idiots must have problems with URLs as well as mental issues. Ill make it simple...... CLICK THE DLINK URL DULLARDS!
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
QUOTE"I even went to their cable/DSL router page http://www.dlink.com/products/category.asp?cid=2&sec=2"

Try the link that lists all Cable modem/routers and not just the equipment for business....
http://www.dlink.com/products/category.asp?cid=2&sec=0
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
Must admit though dlinks site isnt that clear if you have no patience to look through equipment, some pages they seem to have mixed and match ADSL and Cable broadband equipment together.... What becomes even more confusing (well for the stupid anyway) is it appears they also build xxx in 1 devices which COULD (and only could) be used for either service.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
Infact Netgear who i mentioned also do routers that are neither for JUST cable or just ADSL
http://www.netgear.co.uk/wired_cable_router_rp614.php
As comnut pointed out when using terminology about cable and ADSL equipment things are not as clear cut as they first seem. His links also show this, incindentally another company that in the states atleast do alot of combined router and modem stuff for cable is Cisco cant be bothered to check for the UK though as other fools have already shown they aint reading let alone concentrating (NOT aimed at you Dixinormous)
Posted by kendal01 over 8 years ago
cb, did my original comment not say you won't find a link in the uk. try dlink's uk page and oh what a surprise they don't have the cable modems on there. the netgear link you supply is simply a router btw, it still needs the modem.your rantings show just how stupid you can really be sometimes.
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
'Try the link that lists all Cable modem/routers and not just the equipment for business....
http://www.dlink.com/products/category.asp?cid=2&sec=0'

Nothing with a cable modem in it there.
Posted by comnut over 8 years ago
And the topic gets sillier and sillier..

we may as well be talking about the availability of Hershey bars or twinkies, and how good comcast is today...

:D :D :D (ya know how to use google??? :) )
Posted by Dixinormous over 8 years ago
Quite...
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
quote"Nothing with a cable modem in it there."

Oh really... Hint look at last two lines of the products and click on specifications

Would you also like me to name suppliers in the UK of cable modem/routers?
Posted by BlackAle over 8 years ago
CARPETBURN never learns, it's rather funny.
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