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Eastenders to destroy UK Internet in Christmas Special
Thursday 20 November 2008 07:57:35 by Andrew Ferguson

Well if Eastenders was to do a cross-over show with Spooks and enough people wanted to watch it online on BBC One at the same time it might happen.

Beyond the headline is the news that BBC One and BBC Two will be available to people in the UK from next week. CBeebies, BBC Three and BBC Four are already online.

Live streaming always carries the risk of jitter as connection speeds go up and down, and while you will need something like a 1Mbps or faster connection to watch the live feeds, the bigger issue is whether your provider can cope with the hundreds, or thousands of others watching online at the same exact time. Shows like Eastenders and Strictly Come Dancing have an audience of millions, so only a small proportion need to watch it live to chew up a lot of providers bandwidth.

While the main focus for many is on getting the speed of the last mile of their broadband connection running faster, be it copper twisted pair or co-ax, there are those already finding out that this is not always the bottleneck. Once your data hits the first cable cabinet or telephone exchange it is on a shared medium and if more than 2 or 3% of people are busy actively using the connection then things will start to slow down. Some will try to say this is unique situation to the UK, but it is not, broadband worldwide is cheap simply because of the shared nature of the capacity.

Comments

Posted by c_j_ over 8 years ago
"broadband worldwide is cheap simply because of the shared nature of the capacity"

Or, slightly longer: "... is affordable only because the industry generally chooses to sell significantly more aggregate demand than it can practically deliver [1], which means that sooner or later people are going to be disappointed".

[1] that's the "contention" thing, that hardly anyone ever mentions these days?
Posted by FullAmmo over 8 years ago
This is an ongoing problem regarding use of Bandwidth ISPs Warning e-mails come in thick n fast if you use all your bandwidth to watch TV online....how to get round this problem with all the TV Channels offering Catch-Up TV something has to done to allow the users to watch Live Streaming TV without being penalised...I dont know what the solution is but I look forwards to one being found soonest..
From aj
Posted by carrot63 over 8 years ago
"Eastenders to destroy UK Internet in Christmas Special"

I suppose it makes a change from "PC councils to destroy UK Christmas" or "Extremists to destroy UK Internet in Christmas Spectacular", or even "BBC to destroy UK Christmas with Eastenders Internet special".

Long night!
Posted by Pigmaster over 8 years ago
And when are they going to sort out the licensing?

The rules state that if you have a device capable to receive live broadcasts then you must pay for the TVL.

So we have a group of people who refuse to pay for a TVL but get prosucuted.

We have another group for don't pay but now watch via online live streaming

And then we have the one who pay for the TVL.

What make you laugh is that they should put a front end on so you have to login with your TVL code, because you can be in the final group (ie those who pay) but can not view online because you do not have a geoip linked to the UK
Posted by herdwick over 8 years ago
"I dont know what the solution is" - that's easy, pay more money to get more bandwidth. Be it PAYG or a higher inclusive allowance the solution as with all things is to buy more so you have enough to meet your needs.
Posted by AndrueC over 8 years ago
Christmas was destroyed by advertising and commercialism a long time ago. Then again perverting a pagan ritual to help you control a gullible populace through your own religious teachings never struck me as something worth celebrating.
Posted by AndrueC over 8 years ago
As the for the answer to bandwidth - Herdwick has it right. Pay for what you use.
Posted by ccsnet over 8 years ago
Pigmaster - If you check your T&Cs of your licence it is now stated this type of online media is included...... how you catch some one out is another matter.

Terran

PS Great alternitive if the TV every breaks or the kids want to watch their TV on the PC.
Posted by Scubaholic over 8 years ago
I must apologise for being one of the "destroyers". Can't be a***** to set the VHS, so 20th century so catching up online. Gadget Show on Demand Five - ads still :(, 4OD good & BBC high quality is v good but the pop out player gives normal quality, no choice?.
Be are having to upgrade my exchange after they & O2 recruited lots of new people & caused problems. Don't know why they dropped there prices as I think £24 pm was good for upto 24Meg. At £18 they have less to invest.
Posted by ccsnet over 8 years ago
....and as if by Magic Sky ask the same questions.... http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Technology/BBC-To-Stream-TV-Channels-On-Web-ISPs-May-Not-Hand-Over-Customer-Details-For-Licence-Fee/Article/200811315156193?lpos=Technology_Carousel_Region_4&lid=ARTICLE_15156193_BBC_To_Stream_TV_Channels_On_Web%3A_ISPs_May_Not_Hand_Over_Customer_Details_For_Licence_Fee

Terran
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
Not gonna happen unless millions live in some weird household and gather round a tiny PC monitor at xmas to watch something thats on the TV.
Posted by Kper over 8 years ago
Hmm, that poses interesting questions for TV Licensing. Not everyone in the UK with a broadband connection has a TV... In theory, they would have to prove you used the connection to watch broadcasts LIVE, but in practice the obligation will likely be presented in reverse.
Posted by Rroff over 8 years ago
Its a minefield... i.e. imagine someone who doesn't have a TV license but allows a neighbour who does have a TV license to share their connection via wireless...

The ONLY way they can morally even start to go after people who watch live streams without a license imo is if they require some kind of check against your license before you get to access live streams...
Posted by Rroff over 8 years ago
BTW going from the end of the article ccsnet posted about the BBC having caught people before... the only people they have caught are companies where employees have watched live streams from the office where the office doesn't have a license and the reverse dns entry for the internet connection accessing the streams has the company details in the hostmask or domain lookup.
Posted by Kper over 8 years ago
Presumably licences have licence numbers, so perhaps they should require you to enter that before you can watch?
Posted by Kper over 8 years ago
Sorry: I only skimmed the other comments and for some reason thought they were all about the bandwidth implications.
Posted by Rroff over 8 years ago
For live streaming rather than VoD theres plenty of ways to manage the bandwidth to minimise the impact and plenty of technology available to ISPs should they choose to use it.

However I do think ISPs need to start considering accounts for those people who don't want to see dips in throughput during peak times and charge accordingly.
Posted by Dawn_Falcon over 8 years ago
FullAmmo - *warning* emails? A lot of people just get a massive bill.

Herdwick - No, they'd rather sell people connections with the bandwidth limits hidden in size 1 print and hit people with £200 bandwidth bills. And there's one ISP who are still verifyably adding a margin (exactly 25%, down from their old 50%) to their website "bandwidth meter", compared to a measurement on the customer's end.
Posted by Dawn_Falcon over 8 years ago
Also, the BBC could make a LOT of cash selling liscences at say, £20/year, to allow people outside the UK to view their web streams.
Posted by Rroff over 8 years ago
Theres a lot of copyright issues to that tho - the BBC often only has limited broadcast rights to what they air.
Posted by Dawn_Falcon over 8 years ago
Yes, but that's mostly because they have to offer it free at the end point to liscence holders. If they can sell access, that's another ball game.
Posted by madpaddyman over 8 years ago
I always watch live premier league football live streaming but it is not live:about 4 minutes late,I don't think a licence is required as the streams come from abroad.
Posted by chrysalis over 8 years ago
Wow, I hope the bbc sues tbb for libel with this topic title, the bbc are only pushing the country forward by utilising online multimedia, this is the future, the fact ipstream collapses with it isnt their problem. It is BTw's and its resellers problem.
Posted by chrysalis over 8 years ago
to herdwick I do agree that a big part of problem is the public been very tight and not willing to spend much on broadband (currently evident on sky customers threatening to move for sake of few £), but the biggest problem has to be BT central prices. I expect easynet will have no problem at all with these streams, and if BE have a problem it will be much less than ipstream.
Posted by chrysalis over 8 years ago
to andrueC and herdwick again, PAYG is backwards thinking it will stimulate net usage and be a bad thing. Fact is ipstream wholesale bandwidth costs over 5x the cost of typical internet transit. This needs to be fixed. Either by BTw accepting reduced profits or them pushing the costs back on to dsl ports and burst speed.
Posted by chrysalis over 8 years ago
sorry meant to say it will constrict net usage.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
Dunno what all this nonsense talk about licenses is. Sure you need a license to watch LIVE streamed content, but you dont need a license to watch it an hour later after it hits iplayers catchup service...
http://iplayerhelp.external.bbc.co.uk/help/about_iplayer/tvlicence
CONT....
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
In fact according to the letter of the law about TV licensing you dont technically need one to watch content over an internet connection even if its live. (for numerous reasons)
You can own a TV and a satelite and only view content broadcasted from outside the UK and you would NOT need a license.
The old "You need a TV Licence to use any television receiving equipment" analogy is totally and utterly incorrect. If you have a games console for example and dont watch TV, dont even connect an aerial, they have no right to insist you have a license.
Posted by jchamier over 8 years ago
Why does the BBC think the internet is a good medium for transmitting TV ? Surely the VERY expensive antennas they use are much more efficient for real time? (the BBC still needs to convince many more ISPs to work on multicast!).
Posted by c_j_ over 8 years ago
Indeed, antennas (terrestrial or satellite) are about as spectrum-efficient as you can get at live multicast/broadcast transmission.

Wrt IPtv multicast: there's a lot of hype and very little sense talked about IP multicast. Live TV is the first time multicast comes close to being relevant, and it still doesn't help much *unless* the much over-hyped 21CN supports IP multicast in a sensible way (which afaik so far it doesn't, but correction most welcome).
Posted by chrysalis over 8 years ago
jchamier what do you think BT vision goes over? and iptv services in other countries?
TV on the pc is great for those who are on their pc at the time a show is on they want to watch.
Posted by Aqualung over 8 years ago
All of the media companies are realising its far more cost effective to channel their media down a line that someone else maintains than having to but up masts and satellites...with a lot of thought from the right places all could have a great service providing all but instead we have a piecemeal system thats not fit for purpose...
Posted by AndrueC over 8 years ago
@Aqualung:But it's probably only cheaper because it can't currently do the job as well. if ISPs and backhaul providers have to ramp up investment to handle the load it might not look as attractive.
Posted by Pigmaster over 8 years ago
@Carpetburn
"In fact according to the letter of the law about TV licensing you dont technically need one to watch content over an internet connection even if its live. (for numerous reasons)"

From the TVL site
http://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/information/index.jsp

"You need a TV Licence to use any television receiving equipment such as a TV set, digital box, DVD or video recorder, PC, laptop or mobile phone to watch or record television programmes as they're being shown on TV."

As the internet is live streaming of what is going out live on TV then you do need a TVL
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
quote"From the TVL site
http://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/information/index.jsp"
LMAO you believe a government based site like other saps... If you need a license to as that states "You need a TV Licence to use any television receiving equipment" and then it mentions a "PC" why do the beeb say otherwise for Iplayer http://iplayerhelp.external.bbc.co.uk/help/about_iplayer/tvlicence
YOU DO NOT need a license just to own equipment that can recieve a broadcast, you only need a license if you use that equipment to recieve a wireless broadcast.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
The law in detail is quite clear...
The Wireless Telegraphy Act 1967, "television set" means any apparatus which (either alone or in association with other apparatus) is capable of receiving (whether by means of wireless telegraphy or otherwise) any television programme service but is not computer apparatus.

NOTE IT SAYS NOT computer apparatus.

The only time you need a license is if its equipment used to RECEIVE a TV BROADCAST. proof...
http://www.jifvik.org/tv/tvl1.jpg
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
Computer apparatus and other equipment which is not used and/or does not receive a TV wireless broadcast signal does NOT need a license... More proof... http://www.jifvik.org/tv/tvl2.jpg
If you installed and used a TV card to receive wireless broadcast in your PC that would need a license. At my business premises we have to show health and safety videos to staff, the equipment is not tuned to receive broadcast TV and no aerial is installed. I have a similar letter which states for this use a license is NOT required. Dont believe basic stuff that skips over hard fact!
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
Its not the equipment that needs a license its what you use it for.
If you have equipment and you use it to receive a conventional TV broadcast you need a license, if you dont, no license is needed... You could in theory ask you neighbour to record TV 24/7 and give it to you on tape or dvd to watch, you wouldnt need a license for that as long as you never receive the TV signal. You could watch it all in this sense legally.... Other issues like copyright law if they wanted to be pedantic they could perhaps do you and your neighbour on, but you wouldnt be breaking TV licensing law.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
With the dawn of internet TV and being able to use satelite equipment to just watch TV from other countries but not have it tuned to the beeb or similar, expect the law to change sooner or later.
As things stand now though, there is bugger all they can do about it.
Posted by jchamier over 8 years ago
chrysalis - BTvision is a freeview box with an additional IPTV section on a 2mbps line. Its not Virgin cable. IPTV works for catch up, low-quality television like iPlayer. Once you plug in a 40" or larger HDTV, the quality of current IPTV offerings is quite unwatchable.
Posted by rasczak over 8 years ago
Big surprise, Carpetburn is wrong, yet again. Regardless of the reception method, if you watch as it is being broadcast then a licence to is required. Ten year old letters mean nothing in this case, anyway they just confirm that merely owning the equipment does not require a licence, it is how you use it that determines whether a licence is required.
Posted by rasczak over 8 years ago
So to merely have a computer and broadband does not require a licence. To go to the BBC site and watch the live stream as it is broadcast, well as close to it being broadcast as physics will allow, does require a licence. The iPlayer service doesn't need a licence as that is akin to the neighbour recording it under their licence and giving you a copy, though iPlayer does have the coyright owner's permission.
Posted by chrysalis over 8 years ago
jchamier ok fair point on the bt vision its basically only used for VOD, about your point regarding 40". Well not everyone needs a large hdtv to watch tv, this is the mistake you're making. I got no problem watching something in a small window on my desktop.
Posted by scragglymonk over 8 years ago
not been watching much tv these days, tempted to dump the tv and the licence and replace it with my downloads pc :)

22" screen is fine for my room long and thin and watch across the thin bit, a 40" would not be watchable as would be too close :)
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
You do not need a license to watch live TV over your broadband either. Services like zattoo.com have been running for ages. Dont believe me email the licensing authority and ask them if you need a license for that. "computer apparatus" BY LAW does not need a TV license add a TV card to your computer and you would as that is then equipment to receive a 'broadcast'. The Wireless Telegraphy Act is totally and utterly clear about this. The tvlicensing.co.uk site you mention is totally misleading people with "You need a TV Licence to use any television receiving equipment" thats a load of carp.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
Further more the letter i have is less that 3 years old... The links i provided were to try to demonstrate with proof you dont as the tvlicensing site claims "need a TV Licence to use any television receiving equipment".
That isnt the law now and it never has been.
Posted by rasczak over 8 years ago
Carpetburn, you do realise that tvlicensing.co.uk is the site of the TV Licencing authority. why enail them when you will get the same answer as is on their site, ie that you need a licence to watch live over broadband. Get over yourself and admit that once again you are wrong, and your misleading information may lead to people to performing a criminal act.
Posted by comnut over 8 years ago
TVL dodgers please go here... this topic is about INTERNET!!
http://www.forum.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=924020

- and ofcom says NO!!
http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/11/21/ofcom-turns-nose-bbc-plans


Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
quote"why enail them when you will get the same answer as is on their site, ie that you need a licence to watch live over broadband."
Where does it state that?? All it states is the factually inaccurate comment of "You need a TV Licence to use any television receiving equipment". If that were true than according to its exact letter if you press a button on a TV in currys (IE use it) you would need a license. TV Licensing refers to receiving of a electromagnetic signal via equipment you own capable of receiving that signal. Things like a TV not your PC. Go read up about Wireless Telegraphy.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
It should also be noted they contradict thereself with that
"You need a TV Licence to use any television receiving equipment" statement here...
http://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/information/businesses.jsp
Where they then say, among other things... You don't need a TV Licence if: You use a TV set or computer to watch only pre-recorded DVDs or videos.... Im sorry but whats correct? you either need a license to "use any television receiving equipment" or you dont... The site is misleading and makes false statements
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
As i said i have a letter to confirm that example.... Dont try to argue things you dont know!
Posted by rogan8 over 8 years ago
Quote from TV Licensing site
"Do I need a TV Licence if I only watch programmes online?
It makes no difference how you watch TV - whether it's on your laptop, PC or mobile phone or through a digital box, DVD recorder or TV set - if you use any device to receive television programmes as they're being shown on TV, the law requires you to be covered by a TV Licence.

You will not need a TV Licence to view video clips on the internet, as long as what you are viewing is not being shown on TV at the same time as you are viewing it.
"

Seems very clear and unambiguous

Posted by c_j_ over 8 years ago
"as long as what you are viewing is not being shown on TV at the same time as you are viewing it."

define "at the same time" :)

Is there enough latency between my PC and zattoo (etc) to make it not "at the same time"?

Zattoo apparently think not: "to watch live TV on your PC ... " (http://zattoo.com/en/about-zattoo/what-is-zattoo).

You need a judge (not an armchair lawyer) to make a definitive legal precedent to allow folk to interpret the law definitively.

Anyway, on that basis I wouldn't want to bet much on Zattoo etc being around in the UK in another 12 months.

Posted by rasczak over 8 years ago
Carpetburn, you are the one who doesn't know. Selective quoting is the fallback of those who know they are wrong but don't want to admit it.
You have a letter that says if you have a TV but only use it to view DVDs or computer/console, you don't need a licence. That is correct, but not what we are discussing.
Posted by rasczak over 8 years ago
You need a licence, to "use any television receiving equipment such as a TV set, digital box, DVD or video recorder, PC, laptop or mobile phone to watch or record television programmes as they're being shown on TV." The pertinent bit being, "to watch or record television programmes as they're being shown on TV" Your letter states that as you are not using it "to watch or record television programmes as they're being shown on TV" you don't need a licence.
Posted by rasczak over 8 years ago
But using a broadband connection "to watch or record television programmes as they're being shown on TV" is not mentioned in the letter you posted, why would it its ten years old unless there were less than ten years between now and March 1998 as the letter is dated, so it is of absolutley no reference to this discussion.
Posted by rasczak over 8 years ago
You do need a licence to watch it in Currys. Fortunately that shop has supplied it so you are fine. I believe it is yourself who needs to do some reading up on some physics text books. It certainly is an electromagnetic signal that comes to my computers from the internet. Of course by your argument, you don't need a licence to watch cable TV as that doesn't come through an aerial, but oh wait you do need a licence for that so guess you are wrong, again.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
LOL think whatever you wish the Wireless Telegraphy Act is very clear.

Oh and obviously you do not comprehend the difference between a "BROADCAST" and a "STREAM" of information.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
Things like iplayer or zattoo are P2P applications you are NOT receiving a TV "broadcast". You are NOT receiving the appropriate electromagnetic signal that makes up a TV "broadcast".
You are receiving and sending bits of data that make up a picture... You are NOT receiving a wireless electromagnetic signal in the UHF or VHF range which is governed by the Wireless Telegraphy Act and considered a "broadcast" which covers rules about TV licensing.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
As to recording, if im so free to record stuff from iplayer if i have a TV license, WHY is it DRM protected to prevent recording? likewise you cant record from zattoo either. If iplayer is a as you claim "broadcast live TV" we must all be "broadcasters" as you not only download but upload from these types of services. If it was considered a "broadcast" we would all need a SEPERATE license to "broadcast" the material. Your computer and broadband is in no way equipment capable of receiving the signals covered by the Wireless Telegraphy Act or the TV licensing terms within it.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
When they talk about a PC and receiving a "BROADCAST" they mean if you have things like a TV "TUNER" card fitted to it which receives signals covered by the Wireless Telegraphy Act... Or in simple terms equipment that takes a RF signal and modulates it into reception of TV pictures.... Your PC with just broadband DOES NOT, WILL NOT AND NEVER HAS done that.
Posted by greedy4 over 8 years ago
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2003/ukpga_20030021_en_34#pt4-l1g363

replaced parts of the Wireless Telegraphy Act when they were repealed.
Posted by greedy4 over 8 years ago
So I wouldn't taken anything in the Wireless Telegraphy Act as the law
Posted by rogan8 over 8 years ago
The current relevent act is The Communications (Television Licensing) Regulations, not the Wireless Telegrphy Act. 2004http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2004/20040692.htm.Meaning of "television receiver"
9. - (1) In Part 4 of the Act (licensing of TV reception), "television receiver" means any apparatus installed or used for the purpose of receiving (whether by means of wireless telegraphy or otherwise) any television programme service, whether or not it is installed or used for any other purpose.

Posted by rogan8 over 8 years ago
(2) In this regulation, any reference to receiving a television programme service includes a reference to receiving by any means any programme included in that service, where that programme is received at the same time (or virtually the same time) as it is received by members of the public by virtue of its being broadcast or distributed as part of that service."

"
Posted by rogan8 over 8 years ago
This is why TVL made a big deal of warning individuals and companies of possible prosecution if they watched the 2006 World Cup live over an internet connection.
Posted by c_j_ over 8 years ago
"whether by means of wireless telegraphy or otherwise" (etc)

Well that looks clear and unambiguous enough, to me anyway. How on earth are we expected to find constructive employment for all these lawyers and judges if the laws are being drafted clearly and unambiguously?

Enforcing that one is going to be interesting though. Who's to say whether a particular premises does or doesn't have a broadband connection? DSL/cable is fairly clear, but 3G (esp PAYG?) or sharing wirelessly with a neighbour might be trickier to prove definitively.
Posted by c_j_ over 8 years ago
er meant "broadband connection used for watching TV" (should have run it past my lawyer first).
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
quote"The current relevent act is The Communications (Television Licensing) Regulations, not the Wireless Telegrphy Act. 2004http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2004/20040692.htm"

And in that they quote under part 2...
(b) a person's residence includes any place provided for that person's private occupation.

So tell me now you have a mobile phone, its internet enabled.... You watch live iplayer TV on it.... Explain how that works.... I spose you think walking to work the street is "residence"???
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
quote "The current relevent act is The Communications (Television Licensing) Regulations, not the Wireless Telegrphy Act."

See part 3 of your link....
QUOTE "Definitions for the purposes of the Communications Act 2003 and the Wireless Telegraphy Act 1967"
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
AGAIN QUOTE"The current relevent act is The Communications (Television Licensing) Regulations, not the Wireless Telegrphy Act. 2004http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2004/20040692.htm"
PAY ATTENTION READ PART 3 ITEM 11 again......
QUOTE"Meaning of "television set"
11.-(1) In Part 1 of the Wireless Telegraphy Act 1967, "television set" means any apparatus which (either alone or in association with other apparatus) is capable of receiving (whether by means of wireless telegraphy or otherwise) any television programme service but is not computer apparatus.

NOTE NOT COMPUTER APPARATUS. (CONT.....)
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
2) In this regulation, "computer apparatus" means apparatus which - a) is designed or adapted to be used (either alone or in association with other apparatus) for storing or processing data, but not for doing so in connection with the reception by means of wireless telegraphy of television programme services Note the words (again) DESIGNED OR ADAPTED.
ITS ALL THERE IN BLACK AND WHITE AT YOUR LINK."NOT COMPUTER APARATUS!!!" Try reading it ALL next time.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
DESIGNED...... Computer or mobile phone is not "designed" to receive TV
ADAPTED....... As i stated several times, ADAPTED as in if you fitted a TV tuner card, The computer as is, is NOT adapted to receive TV.
A modem isnt an ADAPTION to receive TV either... Honestly get a clue!
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
Thus COMPUTER APPARATUS is exempt.
Posted by rogan8 over 8 years ago
Yes, that is the acts definition of a Television Set, but the Act has already defined the meaning of a TV receiver " means any apparatus installed or used for the purpose of receiving (whether by means of wireless telegraphy or otherwise) any television programme service, whether or not it is installed or used for any other purpose" and that is being interpreted by the BBC and TVL to mean if you watch live or virtually live TV over an internet connection (does not define or specify any equipment required) you need a license.
Posted by rogan8 over 8 years ago
Its not me who is saying this its TVL and the BBC. Go argue it with them.
Posted by Dawn_Falcon over 8 years ago
Carpet - caselaw says you're wrong. As usual.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
Im telling you a Computer or mobile phone is not "designed" to receive TV. TV licensing applies to equipment DESIGNED to receive TV signals.

You need a license if you own equipment whos purpose and design is to receive TV and you use it to receive a TV signal.

ITS THAT DAMN SIMPLE.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
If you people would read the whole of the act ive originally pointed to you would see it says NOT computer apparatus....

It also goes on to mention what a "broadcast" actually is.... and it aint bits of data through your modem through some P2P app.

Iplayer is P2P, if license rules applied that would mean we are all TV broadcasters, my god if you dont believe me write to and ask the TV licensing authority if you need a TV license for an internet connection or a computer. Licensing is bugger all to do with what you watch its how you watch.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
Ofcom (they are the communications regulator BTW) also say you dont need a license and so does the Department for Culture. The actual legal docs and acts on the matter are clear they state "not computer apparatus". It doesnt matter what some greedy hog from the beeb thinks or some we will get you all spokesperson thinks. Even if it was law, which it isnt, how do you smart alecs propose as an example think they are going to catch people with a pay as you go mobile phone which has no record of who you are or any personal detail, watching TV programming??? GET REAL
Posted by rogan8 over 8 years ago
Your continued reference to "computer apparatus" ONLY refers to the definition of a TV Set. The definition of a TV Receiver "television receiver" means any apparatus installed or used for the purpose of receiving (whether by means of wireless telegraphy or otherwise) any television programme service, whether or not it is installed or used for any other purpose" is the pertinent definition
Posted by rogan8 over 8 years ago
Now go find a link to OFCOM or the Dept for Culture which you feel contradicts this
Posted by mixt over 8 years ago
I have skimmed over the above posts and believe Carpetburn is correct. You need a TV license if you posses AND use any equipment to receive (and more recently) decode a UHF/VHF radio broadcast TV signal. This includes USB TV dongle devices etc. This is the ONLY time you need one.
Posted by mixt over 8 years ago
In the old days, you paid this license to support the infrastructure that the BBC used to broadcast TV signals. If you watch a TV stream on the Internet, you are not using this infrastructure any more - you are using the Internet's (your ISP and other networks) - hence, you do not require a license. It comes down to the medium used. If it is a TV broadcast via radio waves, you need one. If not, you don't. Simple.
Posted by andrew (Favicon staff member) over 8 years ago
If people want to debate then we do have forums, or are people blinkered?

Posted by rogan8 over 8 years ago
Mixt , the current Act does not limit reception to wireless only but casts an open net, "wireless telegraphy or otherwise"
Posted by chrysalis over 8 years ago
all this debate about the tv license I think after this policy from the bbc I think we are almost certianly going to have a change in law in that buying a pc will require a tv licence registration. That is the downside of what they doing. Andrew yeah I also noticed the news page gets more debate than the forums recently.
Posted by rogan8 over 8 years ago
Andrew, the forums would a better place but Carpetburn does not venture outside the UKO forum now.
Posted by mixt over 8 years ago
@rogan8: if that is the case, the law is a farce and needs re-written. That's basically insinuating that (as has been said above) if I record a program, and hand it to someone, the person wishing to watch that then requires a TV license. In effect, it is shifting the paradigm from the receiving of radio waves to the viewing of any TV material by an individual. Then there is the issue of how you enforce that. Good luck to the BBC on that one, cause quite frankly, if you are correct with the "wireless telegraphy or otherwise" definition, they are pissing in the wind.
Posted by Somerset over 8 years ago
In this regulation, "computer apparatus" means apparatus which -

a) is designed or adapted to be used (either alone or in association with other apparatus) for storing or processing data, but not for doing so in connection with the reception by means of wireless telegraphy of television programme services; and

b) is not offered for sale or letting as apparatus for use (either alone or in association with other apparatus) primarily for or in connection with the reception (whether by means of wireless telegraphy or otherwise) of such services;

and "processing" includes displaying.
Posted by rogan8 over 8 years ago
"That's basically insinuating that (as has been said above) if I record a program, and hand it to someone, the person wishing to watch that then requires a TV license"
Viewing pre-recorded programs does not require a license, live TV does
Posted by mixt over 8 years ago
@rogan8: Ok, so then there the issue of how you define "live TV" - is an online TV stream just as live as a radio broadcast TV signal? Sorry, this is turning to be a very grey area that I am not really prepared to discuss here any further because frankly, I find the whole TV licensing requirement to be a bit of a joke these days (the BBC is in the dark ages).
Posted by mixt over 8 years ago
@rogan8: It comes down to two issues. Is the broadcast signal a one-to-many transmission (radio waves/internet multicast technology). Secondly, if you miss receiving/decoding any part of that signal at any point in time, can you go back and get it? A youtube video you can play again and again. Unless you record a TV broadcast, you can't (the same can be applied to streams which are delivered via Internet multicast technology). I think these fundamental issues should be addressed and a new telegraphy act drawn up to encompass the internet and the new technologies which are operating over it.
Posted by dragon1945 over 8 years ago
The Licencing Authority make up the rules as they go along. We got a Summons for "receiving colour transmissions without a Colour Licence". We had a valid B/W Licence for our B/W TV, and had a video recorder. The "Inspector" stated that we were capable of receiving colour transmissions. In Court we proved the colour & B/W switch on the VCR was broken only allowing B/W use. Case dismissed.
We got rid of the TV and were harassed for the next decade as "Licence Dodgers".
Posted by Somerset over 8 years ago
When did VCRs have a colour switch? Why?
Posted by boogie over 8 years ago
What a bunch of dim-wits!!!
A stream is a stream is a stream, that is one continuous stream of data a set of packets that you can connect to or detach from whenever you choose; compared to individual requests from various sources for the same data at various times repeatedly over the same network its obvious the 'stream' is to more efficient.
Maybe your not suited to high levels of TV viewing!
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
quote"I have skimmed over the above posts and believe Carpetburn is correct. You need a TV license if you posses AND use any equipment to receive (and more recently) decode a UHF/VHF radio broadcast TV signal. This includes USB TV dongle devices etc. This is the ONLY time you need one."
Finally someone with the common sense to comprehend what a broadcast is.
I also notice how those with their dreams of what the law is cant answer how they would control or catch someone using a pay as you go internet mobile phone.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
quote"In this regulation, "computer apparatus" means apparatus which -
a)is designed or adapted to be used (either alone or in association with other apparatus)
(SNIPPED TO FIT) (b) is not offered for sale or letting as apparatus for use (either alone or in association with other apparatus)(SNIPPED AGAIN TO FIT)
and "processing" includes displaying."
Is your PC or broadband "designed or adapted to be used". for TV NO Is your PC or Broadband "offered for sale or letting as apparatus for use" for TV. NO The law is for equipment designed to receive a TV broadcast, not a damn internet signal
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
According to how some here are interpreting the law, every public place in the country with computer based equipment with internet access needs to have a TV license incase someone on their premises visits iplayer to watch a bit of LIVE TV which isnt technically live due to things like buffering the data on your PC..... GET REAL
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
Its not a TV broadcast in any way shape or form, its nothing but scaremongering from the BBC and license committee scared of losing money. My business has 3 seperate internet connections, several computers and even more employees, are you jokers trying to say i need a license incase one of them stumbles across a bit of live TV from google LOL or better yet a site popup occurs with it running beyond their and my control LOL...... Get ya heads examined no court in the land would rule im using equipment to receive TV BROADCASTS
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
Oh and dragon1945 is right, they hassle your backside something chronic if they know you have a TV and no license, even if you are not using the TV to receive actual TV services. People here seem to think their THREATS = THE LAW.... Which they dont!
Posted by Somerset over 8 years ago
CB - do you treat your staff like you do the posters here?
Posted by Dawn_Falcon over 8 years ago
CB - They need a liscence or to block live streaming, yes. Most internet cafe's have a liscence.

Andrew - When you use standard BB software, which dosn't log me out constantly (and my cookies are fine, *no* other BB does it), sure!
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
quote"CB - do you treat your staff like you do the posters here?"

What you mean encourage them to read a whole document rather than parts of it? Yes i do that i like to see others educate thereself.

quote"CB - They need a liscence or to block live streaming, yes. Most internet cafe's have a liscence."
What about... Librarys, public internet terminals (they have them even in big shopping centres now, milks you for a £1 a minute or something stupid)... Oh and finally the church and religion who probably have a computer to email their flock but may not even watch TV according to some religions.
Posted by rogan8 over 8 years ago
What you mean encourage them to read a whole document rather than parts of it? Yes i do that i like to see others educate thereself."
If you did that you would see the flaw in you case, but you are so blinkered on one paragraph you cant see anything else.

Posted by greedy4 over 8 years ago
I find it best to ignore CB, he is pig headed and will just spew crap until you get either get bored of trying to educate him or just feel that he is narcissistic and self-loving as you first thought!

He is wrong in this thread, he knows it, but will continue to repeat himself in a hope it will make him correct.
Posted by mixt over 8 years ago
Clauses 9.1 and 9.2 located @ http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2004/20040692.htm clarify things very nicely.

Basically, those two clauses confirm what I suspected. As well as radio broadcasts, if you use your PC (or any other device) and/or ISP connectivity to connect to, receive and decode a live TV broadcast/stream (be that a one-to-one or one-to-many (multicast) stream), you need a TV license. :-)
Posted by Somerset over 8 years ago
CB - no, write and speak in a professional way.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
quote"What you mean encourage them to read a whole document rather than parts of it? Yes i do that i like to see others educate thereself."
If you did that you would see the flaw in you case, but you are so blinkered on one paragraph you cant see anything else."

Fine, go ahead and explain what NOT computer apparatus means in the law then.
Posted by c_j_ over 8 years ago
The chances of this question being answered more definitively in the courts before too long appear to have increased; tvcatchup.com has resurrected itself as a "live" (rather than archive) service (subject to your ISP peering directly with tvcatchup?)
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/11/26/tvcatchup_return/
Posted by rogan8 over 8 years ago
"Fine, go ahead and explain what NOT computer apparatus means in the law then."
I will try and explain it you one time and thats it.
In part 3 of the 2004 act there are 3 terms that defined, that of a Television Receiver, and Television Dealer, and that of a Television Set.
Posted by rogan8 over 8 years ago
The definition of c computer the you keep referring only relates to the meaning of Television Set as defined in the Act.
With regards to viewing live TV over a broadband connection , the meaning of a Televison Receiver is defined as
Posted by rogan8 over 8 years ago
"any apparatus installed or used for the purpose of receiving (whether by means of wireless telegraphy or otherwise) any television programme service, whether or not it is installed or used for any other purpose"

It is this definition that applies to viewing Live TV over an internet connection.
Posted by rogan8 over 8 years ago
Note each term (Television Receiver, Television Dealer and Television Set)are defined in ots own right and independantly of the others.
Posted by rogan8 over 8 years ago
Now that is aa easy as I can explain it to you CB.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
"Fine, go ahead and explain what NOT computer apparatus means in the law then."
I will try and explain it you one time and thats it.
In part 3 of the 2004 act there are 3 terms that defined, that of a Television Receiver, and Television Dealer, and that of a Television Set."

COMPUTER APPARATUS IS NOT a TV Receiver, not a TV dealer and not a TV set.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
quote"With regards to viewing live TV over a broadband connection , the meaning of a Televison Receiver is defined as "any apparatus installed or used for the purpose of receiving (whether by means of wireless telegraphy or otherwise) any television programme service, whether or not it is installed or used for any other purpose"

It is this definition that applies to viewing Live TV over an internet connection."
Selective reading and quoting again... PART 3 SUBSECTION 11 CLEARLY states "but is not computer apparatus." CONT...
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
A PC also is not INSTALLED OR USED for the purpose of receiving Live TV. Just as a mobile phone is not INSTALLED OR USED for the PURPOSE of receiving Live TV. There PURPOSE is something else entirely, in fact without a modem or TV card you wouldnt and couldnt call them as you state "TV RECEIVERS" anyway. Please also see c_j_ latest post of a service which has been re-launched so far without legal challenge to STREAM yes stream thats different to BROADCAST and RECEPTION. You also FAILED in an epic fashion to state what "computer apparatus" actually is with regards to meaning of the act.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
You dont need a TV license for you PC, only time you do is if you shove a TV card in it to receive BROADCASTED TV. The license fee is bugger all to do with the equipment you own. Hence why you can have an actual TV but not shove an aerial in the back to receive the broadcast without a license.
Further more if you think a PC needs a license to receive internet TV please tell us all is the license for the PC, the modem, the data from the modem, or something else? Computer apparatus = TV receiver LMFAO yeah if you say so LOL
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
quote"With regards to viewing live TV over a broadband connection , the meaning of a Televison Receiver is defined as "any apparatus installed or used for the purpose of receiving (whether by means of wireless telegraphy or otherwise) any television programme service"

If that gibberish were true just watching the recent youtube LIVE event you would need a license.
Technically it was live, technically although poop it can be deemed as that so called dribble says "ANY TV" service and technically you DIDNT need a licence.
Posted by rogan8 over 8 years ago
CB, I think you are just taking the micky.
Posted by Somerset over 8 years ago
If you watch http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/playlive/bbc_one/ on a PC you need a TV licence.

CB - yes or no?
Posted by rogan8 over 8 years ago
As CB says "The license fee is bugger all to do with the equipment you own"
Exactly. Its what you watch and when.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
quote"If you watch http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/playlive/bbc_one/ on a PC you need a TV licence.
CB - yes or no?"
Nope you dont need a license if you watch that over a broadband connection.
For those that still think you do explain please why when i stopped of at Aldi yesterday to pick up one of their cheap PCs with TV card for my ill neighbour, i had to fill in a TV license form because the thing has a TV TUNER CARD in it. Yet a PC i recently bought (less than a month ago complete with built in wifi card but NO TV TUNER i didnt have to fill in a TV license form.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
Jesus christ A TV license is for viewing broadcasts NOT STREAMS...Christ is that really so hard to grasp? What the TV licensing site says and the beeb says to the letter is wrong and scaremongering. The law and the Wireless Telegraphy Act is clear you dont need a TV license and if you lot think a "computer" is in anyway a "TV receiver".... Go buy a TV, you fill in a TV licensing form..... Go buy a PC with built in wifi YOU DONT fill in the form. Why do you think that is huh??? My god use some common sense. A computer is not a TV receiver got it? No of course you all havent.
Posted by rogan8 over 8 years ago
Never said a computer is receiver, only you keep saying that. Why are you so blinkered? Are you just scared to admit you got it wrong and cant face back tracking.
the Act is clear, it makes no descrimination how live is received or what equipment is used.
Posted by rogan8 over 8 years ago
The last TV I bought a couple months ago didnt require me to fill in a form either.
Maybe they can check against credit/debit card.
Posted by Somerset over 8 years ago
CB - So the words on the live BBC1 stream I'm watching on my PC are wrong - 'Don't forget, to watch TV online as it's being broadcast, you still need a TV licence'?
Posted by Dawn_Falcon over 8 years ago
Carpet, you're wrong under the accepted and enforced interpretation of the law. Period.
Posted by Somerset over 8 years ago
CB - don't base your opinion on whether or not you have to fill in a form when you buy something.
Posted by Somerset over 8 years ago
b - your link tells us - 'Yes. Anyone in the UK watching or recording television as it's being broadcast or simulcast on any device - including mobiles, laptops and PCs - must, by law, be covered by a valid TV licence.'.

http://iplayerhelp.external.bbc.co.uk/help/about_iplayer/simul_license
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
Explain services like Zattoo and this one ive recently found which broadcasts LIVE TV...
http://www.tvcatchup.com/
CONT
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
The terms on this service i have just found state and i quote "This website is open to eligible members of the public, to enable them to watch the world’s first independent live TV service using the internet.
Membership is free, and use of this website is, and always shall be, free of charge.
This website provides a lawful service to those members who are situated within the area in which the broadcast was intended to be viewed."
Zattoos terms are similar.... Obviously i am not wrong and you can watch live tv on the net with no licence.
Posted by CARPETBURN over 8 years ago
quote"The last TV I bought a couple months ago didnt require me to fill in a form either.
Maybe they can check against credit/debit card. "

That is either a bare faced lie or the company you purchased from is breaking the law.
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